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Why is 8 described as "present oriented"?

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    Why is 8 described as "present oriented"?

    (Disclaimer): You're welcome to discuss my type. Most of you also know that the type being suggested for me has been one of my favorites for years, but if you wish to do so, I'd prefer if that was saved for another thread. At present, I'm mostly interested in parsing out this little inconsistency, because I believe it has led to a lot of mistypes.

    From the start, Ichazo describes 8 like this:
    "Point 8 is known as “Ego-vengeance”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Justicemaker”.

    This ego derives from the Historical Ego, which is a response to the Conservation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Conservation Instinct at the root of Ego-Vengeance is Avarice.

    Ego-vengeance experiences a sense of abuse in the childhood relationship with a Mother figure.
    My takeaway from this is
    - if you feel hurt by the figure supposed to be filling the primary nurturing role, the result is that you are going to view the world as hostile, unfair and unjust. Off the bat, this sounds to me like a pessimistic personality, someone who is going to think ahead so that they can avoid pitfalls they fell into during their youth
    - "conservation instinct, at the root of ego vengeance is avarice" so....someone who is interested in boundaries? resources? territory? Sure, the characterization that 8s tend to have a more sensory/tangible focus makes sense, but not necessarily a present focus. It seems perfectly reasonable that such a person would be inclined to abstract strategy if higher in intelligence, and if lower in intelligence, still someone who would be tactical enough to make basic preparations in advance.
    - Even before Naranjo, Ichazo seems to to connect 8 with 5, naming "avarice" as a kind of "psychic poison", and describing a kind of over-conservation tendency similar to what most authors have agreed is close to the core of 5. With 5 being the most detached type with a tendency to build up mental models and schemas and save more than they earn, we are looking at another strongly future-oriented character trait.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Vengeance. The Passion which feeds this ego is Lust (Excess). The primary defense mechanism is Rationalization. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Passive-Aggresive Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Resistance. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.
    - In other words: someone who has been wronged/hurt/abused turns to excess for the sake of exacting vengeance. It sounds to me like a more apt name for this pattern mighty be something like "over-acquisition" which is, once again...the kind of behavior one would expect more of from a future-oriented rather than a more present minded personality
    - "secondary defense mechanism of resistance" sounds a lot like "confrontation in the moment is employed where aforementioned acquisition cannot ensure victory or autonomy". This suggest that that doesn't tend to be their first course of action, and that they have desire to look ahead and avoid unnecessary damage or injury.
    - I admit the "passive-aggressive" bit is strange to me, I don't know how to interpret that.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Laws and Morals, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Morality on one side, or Tolerance at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Puritanism at one extreme or Hedonism at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Self-righteous character at one end, the Libertine at the other. A sense of Remorse invades the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Cruelty as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Mythomania.
    moving on to more
    - "fixated in the "Domain of Laws and Morals" implies a touch of idealism: "what do I want the future to be like, and how do I change existing laws or present realities in order to bring that about?"
    - the "hedonism" side of the hedonist/Puritan oscillation is indeed a present minded neurosis, I'll grant you that.

    Conclusion: Yes, it makes sense that 8s would be people who enjoy taking good food, excitement and satisfaction where they can get it, but these by themselves do not address the primary neuroses centered around control and boundaries. By and large, Ichazo's description primarily paints 8 as someone who
    - goes to excessive lengths to acquire power and prevent himself from being hurt in the same manner which he remembers from childhood.
    - goes through periods of fixating on principles of justice out of a desire to prevent future loved ones from being hurt the way they were.**

    while less frequently tending to
    - react aggressively to perceived threats and/or challenges
    - engage excessively in passionate hobbies to "get the full satisfaction out of them".

    **while not mentioned here, this ties in nicely with later author's use of "denial" as the defense mechanism for 8. Admitting you are hurt is showing weakness, so rather than deal with them directly, many 8s cope by giving other people the protection that they were never given, and are too proud and/or lacking in self-awareness to give to themselves.

    Typical roles I hear about 8s taking over frequently are
    - entrepreneur
    - pioneer
    - war strategist/general
    - financier
    - martial artist (particularly if living in areas where there is a material need for self-defense).

    In my opinion, all of these relatively common hobby/career paths for 8s, and each of them requires being future oriented enough to spend years and thousands of dollars to get to a desired position of power, freedom to satisfaction.

    Yeah, I don't think 8s "can't see past the end of their nose." The power orientation is important - on the Enneagram, 8 is the type with the most direct connection to power, being right between the other two power types, 2 and 5. Power isn't necessarily fast. It can take time to build something solid and lasting.

    I think the "excessive lengths" gone to to secure power is probably where the confusion comes from. All the gut types are concerned with territory, and 8's style is to expand theirs, sometimes infringing on that of others' (even unknowingly) or breaking "the rules." People may perceive that instinctive boundary-breaking as rashness or "being in the moment"/"not thinking." Ultimately like you said 8 has that push-pull in its approach to expending or conserving resources because of its line to 5. 8s' actions may be surprising, risky, or rash to others, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a bigger picture.
    Last edited by inkreservoir; 11-17-2022, 08:40 AM.