Skeptical of Instinct theory

[SpiritoftheGael]

Update: I am currently in favor of seeing the centers ("... of intelligence" according to R&H) as the actual instinct bases. Our "personality type" is a fixation in an instinct center (Gut or Self Preservation or Physical, Heart or Sexual or Relational, Head or Social or Adaptive), and the orientation of this fixation is according to the law of three (positive, negative, neutral) -> hence there are three points within each instinctive center.

With this, we have three 'selves' per each instinctive center, with one being the predominant fixation. As an example, I would place Brad Pitt's central fixation at 3, which means his most fixated instinct center is that of the Relational instinct, or more commonly known as "Sx." For the two other instincts for him, I would place at 9 for his Preserving/Physical instinct, and 7 for his Social/Adaptive instinct. I am undecided still as to whether the order of the fixations matters at all, aside from the primary fixation leading. Perhaps it is better to think of them as a triangle, with the primary fixation on the corner pointing upwards, while the remaining two constitute the two corners of the base.

While I am borrowing heavily from Ichazo and his "Trifix" here, my take on it is very different from what he was professing. All of the contemporary Enneagram teachers and authors differ vastly from his teachings, and I have no interest in feigning a puritan stance either.
And for the observant reader, what I am conjuring here has absolutely nothing to do with K. Fauvre's "tritype." I think that "Tritype" can be thrown in the garbage bag. There is nothing worth salvaging.

So what do you think causes the difference between someone who is typed as SP 5 vs someone typed as SO 5 for example?

[Animal]

Amen! We can be Non Puritan purists... or something.

[Daeva]

Update: I am currently in favor of seeing the centers ("... of intelligence" according to R&H) as the actual instinct bases. Our "personality type" is a fixation in an instinct center (Gut or Self Preservation or Physical, Heart or Sexual or Relational, Head or Social or Adaptive), and the orientation of this fixation is according to the law of three (positive, negative, neutral) -> hence there are three points within each instinctive center.

With this, we have three 'selves' per each instinctive center, with one being the predominant fixation. As an example, a 379 man with type 3 as core would mean that his most fixated instinct center is that of the Relational instinct, or more commonly known as "Sx," at 9 for his Preserving/Physical instinct, and 7 for his Social/Adaptive instinct. I am undecided still as to whether the order of the fixations matters at all, aside from the primary fixation leading. Perhaps it is better to think of them as a triangle, with the primary fixation on the corner pointing upwards, while the remaining two constitute the two corners of the base.

While I am borrowing heavily from Ichazo and his "Trifix" here, my take on it is very different from what he was professing. All of the contemporary Enneagram teachers and authors differ vastly from his teachings, and I have no interest in feigning a puritan stance either.
And for the observant reader, what I am conjuring here has absolutely nothing to do with K. Fauvre's "tritype." I think that "Tritype" can be thrown in the garbage bag. There is nothing worth salvaging.

[Quindary]

I think many people's instincts show up in their mentality toward the world, the specific content of their mind somewhere, and so on... mine not so obviously. I grew up divorced from my body, hence the movements of the body don't register very well with me. Including a lot of physical world tells for any instinct, whether self-pres, sexual, or social. And a lot of the involvement in that world that would otherwise tinge my thoughts more obviously toward my instincts.

The reason I tend to agree with the typing at so/sx for me is because it accurately depicts the way I move online, where the physical body is not concerned but there is plenty of access to others and their work. In my explorations of the online world, I've always moved into new social scenes and as I went, gotten to know the community and gravitated toward deeper connection with specific people on the side. Were I more of a "irl" person as well, this would define my whole life - go into a new social scene, get to know it, pick out the favorites... move on, pick out new favorites. To some extent I do this, but lately in my "irl" I am doused in too many scenes I didn't get to choose for my own preferences (work, for one, where I spend so much of my time...college, another...), so I don't have much (or any) attraction to anyone there. But overall, this is why I end up with individual friends from so many different scenes that don't know each other - this is the shape of my interpersonal compartmentalization.

So I see these instincts as more motion than anything - they are a centerpoint of how you deal with the world around you and others that sits under the core.

Besides which, the physical world really is anathema to me.. the physical self-pres - health, resource acquisition, etc. - not my domain at all. Not only is it not what life is about, but it's half the reason I want to escape this world. I'm anti-self-pres. I don't like it. It is my albatross. It makes me unfree. It forces me into a whole life I don't want.

[[redacted]]

"not sure wtf they think Social is if that's the case lmao"

uhhh Social types are just shallow status obsessed and don't care about connections beyond networking right??

[BalalaikaBoy]

the degree to which people mix up concepts doesn't help either. like, some people think Sx has nothing to do with intimacy, and other people think it only has to do with intimacy (not sure wtf they think Social is if that's the case lmao)

I'm also of the opinion that we can better get in touch with our instincts with age and practice. I feel more instinctively confident in all three of the instincts than I did even a few years ago (though my core type also lends itself well to instinctual intelligence in general, so that's probably part of it).

[BalalaikaBoy]

Daeva
I know what you mean. personally, I divide instincts into several sub-traits each, and those aren't necessarily correlated with each other. ex: I type as Sx/Sp because I'm high on a broader range of traits that are Sx-related, but there are a few in which I am very Social. ex: I have a fascination with understanding different societal structures and models, and have a greater appreciation for the need for some level of rules and guidance that a lot of Soc-last types don't recognize (though tbf, this was also something that made sense only later, after years of observing people and reading through over a dozen college lecture series on history. my natural predisposition is very much anarchistic). you could probably also argue that my penchant toward the teacher/sage role is also driven by some level of Social.

if I were to map them out though, my composite scores in all three would probably be somewhat balanced. maybe 45% Sx, 35% Sp and 20% Soc

[Animal]

I definitely experience instinct percentages fluctuating in myself, depending on the time period. They don't fluctuate constantly every day in some drastic way, but I feel like certain time periods in my life are 'marked by' each instinct coming more to the fore.

[Daeva]

I agree with that. I also think that those percentages will change depending on circumstance and how much you've come to terms with yourself. I imagine a less neurotic person will have percentages closer to 34-33-33.

[Princess of Hearts]

All other issues aside, the way I personally see it is that you can be, for example:
80% sx, 15 %sp, 5% so
but you can also be
35% sx, 34% sp, 31% so
(obviously there is no way to measure it, I just imagine it in those terms)

And I feel like it's often described as a lot more grand and magical than that and like deep down we all have one dominant instinct that carries a whole world with it and excludes everything else, rather than just three loosely defined areas that all people regularly access in different ways and to different degrees.
But I really think that for some people deciding on their dominant instinct is about as significant as deciding on what color gummy bear to eat first, would say I fall in that category.

I prefer subtypes because the focus is on variations of types rather than instincts as a separate thing, but that theory also needs some work.

I also like the idea of syn/contra flow theory and think there might be something to it, I just know that simply saying I feel contra flow feels more significant to me than choosing a single stacking.

[a2jc4life]

I'm skeptical of instinct theory, too. It's a muddy concept. If you read about the 9 types from various sources, they may not all be identical, but they're clearly overlapping, or variations on a theme. (I don't mean the types are variations of each other; I mean each source's descriptions of a given type are variations of each other.) There are clear, recognizable cores that you can trace from source to source.

Instincts don't seem to be like that. Every source seems to have a completely different idea of what the instincts are and how to describe them, and some of them are so far from overlapping that they actually contradict. That makes it hard for me to accept the validity of any of them as universal and useful observations.

On the other hand, if you go by the general energy of them, I agree that they seem to parallel the three centers, and I wonder if they might emphasize or counter-balance (depending on the stacking) the natural stacking of the tritype.

[BalalaikaBoy]

(not directed at you) where is the "higher physical center?" I've noticed this bias both in MBTI groups (N snobs) and in Enneagram circles: the physical realm and the instincts are viewed condescendingly rather than as a necessary facet of the human experience (I noticed this immediately as an Se-seeking type, because that's precisely a lot of what I lack)

[Animal]

We were just talking about it, it actually does work.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Animal it would explain why the sx 9s keep seeing themselves as 4ish etc, if they're a heart center 9. I don't know. Something to think about

[SpiritoftheGael]

Daeva 100% agreement. SX has been really muddled.