Skeptical of Instinct theory

[Daeva]

All in all, there is a strongly disappointing LACK of information on instincts - be it in the Enneagram or from the psychology domain at large. I doubt that the biology domain will help either, but I'm getting desperate here.

[Daeva]

In Freudian's model of the psyche, the instincts are found in the Id, with the practical ego bargaining between this Id drive towards pleasure, and the conscience and ego-ideal of the super-ego. If there is truth to lining up the Id, ego, and superego with the Enneagram types, then types 3, 7, and 8 would have pronounced displays of instinct, and types 1, 2, and 6 would be instinctually suppressed. Theoretically, this would make types 3, 7, and 8 easier to identify with their "instinctual stackings" than types 1, 2, and 6 if we assume that the stackings are, indeed, indicating instinct.

It seems unwise to correlate types with these psychic agents, but it is not unreasonable to say that a type 1, for example, has a pronounced super-ego.

One's Enneagram type is a full "psychic apparatus". It includes the in-born instincts with the development of the Id, the egoic defense mechanisms, and the super-egoic internalization of ideals and norms.

In this sense it is true that while the Enneagram is not describing instinctual responses alone, instincts do make up the foundation of type. And I don't find any sense in separating instincts from type, just as separating defense mechanisms from type is nonsensical.

[Animal]

Example:
Freud believed that many of our feelings, desires, and emotions are repressed or held out of awareness. Why? Because, he suggested, they were simply too threatening. Freud believed that sometimes these hidden desires and wishes make themselves known through dreams and slips of the tongue (aka "Freudian slips").

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is...scious-2796004

[Animal]

"However, some scientists argue that there is little evidence that most people have a specific drive toward self-destruction. According to them, the behaviors Freud studied can be explained by simpler, known processes, such as salience biases (e.g., a person abuses drugs because the promise of immediate pleasure is more compelling than the intellectual knowledge of harm sometime in the future) and risk calculations (e.g., a person drives recklessly or plays dangerous sports because the increases in status and reproductive success outweigh the risk of injury or death)."

In my view these people are disagreeing with the principle of enneagram. Freud is more in line with it, by saying we self destruct because of an unconscious drive .... much like enneagram says the type is an unconscious drive.

[Daeva]

Well, Gray is going against Freud's idea here. "The death drive opposes Eros, the tendency toward survival, propagation, sex, and other creative, life-producing drives."
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive

[Quindary]

@Animal

"Like Soc firsts we have typed who just don't care about socializing one way or other,"

It's not about socializing per se. It's about a priority put on the social world. This can be through participation - or not. Like me, studying the social world of my family as a kid to figure out how to best abstain from it.

[Animal]

Arya Quindary as you know I always operate on the presumption of polarities for types. But my problem is that many people with these types seem to also exist outside the polarities. Like Soc firsts we have typed who just don't care about socializing one way or other, without actually being anti-social. Sp firsts who are just chill about survival unless necessary and who have other priorities. Etc.

[Animal]

If MBTI and other such Cognitive personality theories are said to stem from Jungian psychology, one could say that the Enneagram is Freudian in nature. The common inclusion of the "Id, ego, and Superego" within this system is another example. So I think it is right to say that the view on instincts as it pertains to the Enneagram can be sourced back to Freud.

yeah, this is the first source for 'where it comes from' that makes sense. With more research we may be able to link most of its general principles. I grew up reading stuff like Freud so I kind of took those principles for granted.... now I'm realizing that I should reread and rethink. Freud is also big on parental orientation.

FYI, David Gray believes that the "Sexual instinct" is the Death instinct. Seriously.

Crazy. If Sx is death then what's Sp/Sx? A lot of his stuff is just heavy mythologizing, which can be wonderful but also misleads from the roots.

[Animal]

Quindary Yeah sorry, I worded my post badly. The dichotomies make perfect sense, but what doesn't make sense is how a Social first can just not care that much about social. Like you!
Or do you? Do you see yourself in this dichotomy?

[SpiritoftheGael]

Quindary I'm just wondering if maybe there is a more precise word for self preservation than "self preservation" which is a huge source of confusion for people because they think well I definitely care about that. That's why I have all of these social connections or something like that. I know I've confused it in the past.

[Animal]

Oops I hadn't seen those yet. This is where comment chains get confusing :P
I'll look.
And yeah Quindary, exactly.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Animal it is a very similar idea to what I was talking about today with type nine having a polarity around suffering. Same idea, just applied to the instincts as well

[SpiritoftheGael]

Animal did you see mine and Quin's comments about so,sx, and sp being polarities around an issue, so an obsession with sx could lead to sexual or asexual behavior?

[Daeva]

Hmm. On that link to Freud's theories of Life and Death, he has.... essentially Sx, Soc, and Sp (in that order going downwards) - under "Life instinct."

If MBTI and other such Cognitive personality theories are said to stem from Jungian psychology, one could say that the Enneagram is Freudian in nature. The common inclusion of the "Id, ego, and Superego" within this system is another example. So I think it is right to say that the view on instincts as it pertains to the Enneagram can be sourced back to Freud.

FYI, David Gray believes that the "Sexual instinct" is the Death instinct. Seriously.

[Quindary]

"So then we could postulate that instincts are "where your libido is aimed" while types are "defense patterns to help you survive" -- which actually means types are equally 'instincts...'"

I agree here. Libidinal + defense patterns, and yes it is ALL, technically, instinct. Otherwise you'd have to learn a type rather than simply emerging as it.