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Fiona Apple

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    I just found this song, and I was thinking, it sounds like a 469 anthem. . Well.. there is a lot of 6 and 9 in it, but a lot of 4 elsewhere in her music.
    I have changed my mind on her so much lately because I've been tweaking my mental landscape when it comes to "what constitutes a 9, vs a 4, vs a 5." And things like that.
    I can type some people with ease, while others give me trouble - so this required rereading the old books and rethinking my foundational concepts. Every few years, I think it's good to do that. Ideas will grow and evolve, but then we can't forget the basics.

    Maybe she is 4-6-9. I'd be open to four lead.
    She does have a lot of anxiety, but I'm wondering if it isn't an anxiety disorder that emerged from trauma. Her songs seem hearty and shame ridden.
    I considered 9 for a long time, but she's just a bit too uncomfortable in her own skin.

    "On The Bound"

    All my life is on me now, hail the pages turning
    And the future is on the bound, hell don't know my fury
    You're all I need, you're all I need, you're all I need
    You're all I need, You're all I need, you're all I need
    Youre all I need - and maybe some faith would
    Do me good
    I don't know what I'm doing, don't know should I
    Change my mind, I can't decide, there's too many
    Variations to consider
    No thing I do don't do no thing but bring me
    More to do, It's true, I do imbue my blue unto myself,
    I make it bitter
    Baby, lay your head on my lap one more time
    Tell me you belong to me
    Baby say that it's all gonna be alright
    I believe that it isn't.


      Riso & Hudson wrote a four description that was basically relatable to everyone. In the facebook group where a lot of the teachers hang out, there was a poll on people's lead type, and 85% of people typed at four. So the more advanced enneagram typers are always hesitant to type every celebrity as four. This means even when someone checks all the 'typical four boxes' - like Fiona does - we still look further to see if maybe it isn't REALLY some other type.

      But after years of taking all the celebs that RH mistakenly typed at four-- and going through them -- and learning more about the creativity of other types -- I am starting to find some people who I originally typed at four, only to move away from it... but maybe four was right.

      Fiona is one of those people. No matter how else the enneagram communities type her, we always have to account for the overload of obvious fourness. "Maybe it's a four fix, or a line to four, or this or that." Maybe it's just four lead.

      She is full of shame and anger, full of desire.. outpouring it into her songs. She's awkward, with big pop out eyes, and a kind of psychological nudity about her that characterizes e4. Her lyrics are insightful - both about her own psychological landscape and that of the person who she's rejecting or pining for. The focus is often on romance, and the flaws that keep her apart from her lover.

      Four is the 'criminal' that fell from the perfect grace of 1.


        For contrast, this would be 469 with 9 lead ---- so much raw anger. BOOM.


          I'm still open to other types for her. I think Full_fathom might have a point that she's heady- and I had always typed her as a head type in the past. Are you guys open to 5? I'm open to 6 and 7 too.. just asking. Although 7 seems the least likely of the bunch. MountainFlower I'd love your opinion! Do you know Fiona Apple? I've really struggled with her type for years, so I'd be curious to hear other ideas.


            I've known of her, but my first formal introduction was from you, when we were still trying to pin down my own type. Since then, I've watched a handful of video clips, and read through the thread about her on CT. We already knew she had a 4 fix. But whether or not its core? I don't feel confident enough to say. I agree though, that 7 isn't likely. I can see a good case for 5 or 4. Sorry I can't be of more help!

            ETA, and fwiw, I'd also vote 5>6


            • Animal
              Animal commented
              Editing a comment
              It's helpful for sure! I've noticed your intuition on catching 7s is pretty good. I appreciate your thoughts
              I still think maybe she could be a 5....

            I think 5 is a good consideration. From some interviews I've watched it becomes very clear that there's a nine fix present. See talks a bit about this and that and then 'you know this just happened' 'and I don't really know why I was doing it but I did' there's a lot of that when she talks. It seems in every conversation, before she talks she retreats a bit into herself, looks down sideways at the ground while trying to parse things from her mind into human-translatable form. She seems a bit uneasy in the public eye, her tone of voice doesn't jump much from high to low, it feels like she has to put a lot of effort into properly gathering her thoughts and translating them. She also talks about how disappointed she can be after her songs are released. She's also said in interviews that she's annoyed by people giving her shit for not producing more and that writing songs should serve her and that she only will write the songs if she feels internally that she has to write the song.

            Fiona: "If I end up writing songs.. that I wanna record... and sing then I'll be doing it hopefully, then I wanna do it. I don't wanna do it just for the sake of doing it. I don't wanna do it and because I wanna do it I'm gonna go and try to write songs. It's gotta be the other way around. Like if I write songs, then I'll be doing it, but if I don't like writing songs I will not force myself to... make an album, just pull one out of my ass, just so I can continue to be in the spotlight or something, or to continue to..... uh.. It doesn't always have to be my career, there's nothing that... there's no law that says to have this as my career my whole life."

            I see no 6 oscillation, I do see nervousness, but no real doubt, but I have the idea she's a head type, following her thoughts, there's lots of complex if this then I'll do that, but if not then I'll.., but otherwise I'll do X. She seems too withdrawn into herself and not enough of a whirlwind for 7.
            "Distress, whether psychic, physical, or intellectual, need not at all produce nihilism.
            Such distress always permits a variety of interpretations."



            • Animal
              Animal commented
              Editing a comment
              Originally posted by Vive View Post

              I see no 6 oscillation, I do see nervousness, but no real doubt, but I have the idea she's a head type, following her thoughts, there's lots of complex if this then I'll do that, but if not then I'll.., but otherwise I'll do X. She seems too withdrawn into herself and not enough of a whirlwind for 7.
              Good point- she is extremely heady. Everything has a reason, and a reason for the reason, and a reason for the reason for the reason. This could easily be 5.. 'imploded' head.

            I'd recommend watching this video especially the very last part where mask comes off