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**Animal** · 10-27-2019, 02:59 PM

Part 1: Astrology, Chiron, Identity & Enneagram.

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

My Chiron in Leo hits me horribly

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

how so?

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

Basically I have a lack of presence. Anything that Leo has, I have a deficit in

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

that makes sense.. i could see how that works. i hadnt thought of it completely that way but it makes sense for me too
not just you have trouble with that sign (like me losing my voice/ throat = taurus second house etc) but also you have a personality defecit around it, like my lack of earth
and you've talked about presence as an issue with you

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Leo is very imagey and about the self so it makes sense

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

I had to work to be seen. I had to grasp to matter
Because fundamentally I feel like nobody

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

I could say I have a similar issue but i dont think so because with me its unconscious
I do it without effort
Because as a 9, deep down I am compelled to be loud to be seen
Its something i just do, its who i am actually
And its my Leo Mars

Naturally loud and attention whore

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

Thana - as far as subwings go are you typing 2w1(3w2)? i could be wrong about the actual number but thats why i would have guessed 2w1(1w9) because it's like youre still rooted in image ( to be somebody) but you feel like you have to work for it and dont have innate skill with image. so it's like something to 'fix' . and yeah i was gonna say what rala said too about there being more 9 attached to it too or gut around being 'seen' and presence
also with all the resentment this makes sense

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

The Chiron in Leo could also indicate a lack of 3 as well
I like 2w1(1w9) better

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

Same Rala
Im compelled to be loud
It's hard for me to be invisible

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Yeah Im like an extraverted introvert. Or more like.. loud but not sociable

Its different
Im not a people person at all

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

Yeah exactly the same

I get really loud sometimes around people. Just like interjecting myself without thinking

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

With me its like what goes on on the inside MUST show on the outside and i cant help it

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

And I got great shame around that

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

Sometimes I'll just be listening to strangers talk and just randomly interject and them im like why did I do that. It never bothers people but it's also weird

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

i have mars in sag so i guess i have a loud presence.
mars in sag is like the 7/8 line

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

Pretty sure I'm sag in sag or something

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Lol I do that too and sometimes i do it in a 1ish way because a lot of times my sister hets annoyed at me for my comments
Accuses me of being bitchy and judgy
But Im just giving my opinion or thinking out loud most times

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTeVolcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

oh yes i did see it rala! a few days ago. SO AWESOME .

. and yeah
yeah exactly
and the reason why it's chiron and so painful is because youre still an image type
my chiron is painful because, like most people might just laugh this off but for me my pipeline to earth is my self expression and it's through that that i become LESS self absorbed because others relate and then i feel their humanity

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Yours is in Taurus?

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

and the chiron is connected to throat so i lost my self expression , and it makes sense it's at taurus, on the opposite side of most of my signs except my moon. it shows the HUGE disconnect
yeah rala you were the one who told me taurus was connected to the throat and it might be about voice, you might not remember

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

I see taurus as bery imagey too
Its Venus after all

Arya 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

but that was what made me stop yapping and look into astrology

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

No i remember, but i wasnt sure if it was taurus or in the second house of taurus

**Animal** · 10-27-2019, 03:22 PM

Part 2: Type Four and Identity

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

yeah my voice was finely honed and was considered beautiful.
in a way that no other part of me ever will
so as a LIBRA IN 8TH who used my voice to transform my libido and passion into beauty and make it manifest through the voice this was an irreparable disconnect and i knew that
any singer losing their voice is tragic but this was all i had. with my tritype i put all my eggs in one basket and charged forward. with 4 leading i had one identity i knew as a child. it was like i was left with nothing
merely an animal
in a way i worship animals and see them as MORE than humans and thats the metaphor too, like im something beyond and something more primal at once; but also i cant connect.
thats why on the 'whats your enneagram flaws' thread i tried to emphasize the disconnect because thats what it is
if i cant make Erosia manifest then i only get MORE self absorbed out of trying to find a way to do it
ironically if i could sing like before i was more selfless and more about others
like in a balanced way. more integrated
to 1 and 2
im not trying to say those types are about others per se but it's more that theres a superego sense of duty and paying attention to whether others are right or not and things like that. i am violently self absorbed and can miss important things with others just assuming it's not my concern even if they're my close friend, just accept who they are and work on myself. theres major self absorption there
when i was singing in my mid teens and doing better, my attitude was more involved
because i had my thing 'down, ' i practiced it every day, knew where i was headed and honed it and then i was often helpful, thoughtful, advising others, thinking about their issues in my spare time and how to solve or help, confronting on flaws or what might be wrong, attentive
i still have this streak but it fluctuates
which is why i insist that outside my close circle people dont exist to me and i don't think to like or dislike them or confront them on their errors
so the "pipeline" to earth was my voice and that is what i called it aside from more magical things that it did inside me
and now theres no easy pipeline
not that it was easy i worked hard on it, but it was achievable
so my frustration about chiron is in the same ballpark as you Thana - in the sense that we both have frustration that we cant "reach" people with something about us
for you presence, for me expression
and this would make us "Somebody" (to us)
it's not so much in my case that i need to be SEEN for who i am, but i need to be SOMEBODY, be valued for what i do
and through that, people would see who i am and those who get it would really get it.
and thats why all these people going "i don't know who i am" arent fours, four is the need to express the identity you already know you have
i understand the argument that this identity may be false or arbitrary
but it's subjective so it's like, whatever
things like love, identity, God, etc - don't exist to us unless we believe in them. anything that makes life beautiful and fulfilling could be philosophized away by some nihilist saying nothing really exists. and i half agree. it's not about if it REALLY exists, it's about how you want to live your life and focus your energy
because beauty and emotion clearly "exist" as much as anything can, so if you can tap into the beauty and emotion at the heart of all humanity, then your life is worth living
there are other things to make life worth living TOO, but that one is mine
so i really don't see the point in asking, does identity really exist
it does and doesn't. the end. it's like God. does God exist? does love? you can debate it for eons but then miss the beauty and passion right in front of you
and THAT is why four is romantic. however there are other types that are much more classically romantic TOWARD OTHERS
four has a romance with honing the beauty of their own identity and its expression
so taurus is the earthly manifestation of beauty and having a chiron there is basically (for me) four's discomfort with being incarnate.
the thing inside me is beautiful and fulfilling but i cant make it incarnate.

**Animal** · 10-27-2019, 04:16 PM

Part 3:
Enneagram 4 leading vs. Enneagram 9 leading, even with 4 fix
The Meaning of Soul
Is Enneagram a Fixation to shed, or is it part of a Potentially Healthy Archetype?
Do we Retain our Archetype after Death, over many Lifetimes?
The End of the Universe as a Metaphor for the Soul Cycle
Separation vs. Oneness

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

a part of me resonates and another part doesnt. Like a part of me is very very subjective and obsessed with my emotions, my pain, my drama, story etc. But a part of me feels heavy and seeks to cut ties with this burden. but then again I cant because then i would lose myself because my pain, my story, my emotions are what makes me me
like the other part of me seeks a greater truth
an objective one

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

all of this is fascinating to me, volcana and rala. I have such a tenuous relationship with my identity.
I don't know how to conceptualize it

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

yeah for me it's even beyond my stories and emotions which are still to some degree, incarnate
for me emotions are still a body thing. what im trying to express is more of this whole symbolic home planet . and this is why i keep saying four is SEPARATE on the opposite end of the enneagram than 9.
rala obviously has her own identity and her own thoughts, she's not a mishmash of things outside herself. however there's still the drive for an objective shared truth

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

yeah
i related sooo much to what [our 9 friend] said once
about needing a hug from the truth of the Universe or something along those lines

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

i feel like a spirit from the ether that neither emphasizes the subjective (what interiority is there to draw from) nor the objective but rather synthesizes the two together
apart from that, I have no idea who I am
i have self-dysphoria
the domicide of the self

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

but volcana, yeah my identity goes beyond just my emotions and my story too. But then i always wonder how I am the expression of my soul on this earth but this expression has been influenced by a lot of things, and this is also ME. but if I was to go back to who i was before my incarnation i would lose a lot of pain, fixations etc
not lose... it would probably integrate all of this experience into my soul

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

Thana - a lot of what you say reminds me of things Daeva says. ill get to this in one sec. to answer rala because thats a short answer, this is a HUGE discrepancy in how i experience my identity, what you just said - and a very telling one, because most people would think you're more correct

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

but i see myself with my fixations staying THE SAME across many lifetimes

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

it depends how you see life and the universe and the soul i guess
i think who we are on this earth is just a part of our soul

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

like ive always been something similar. maybe in some lives i was 5 or 8 leading instead or maybe i cycled through the instincts. but i doubt even that (and im just using enneagram as an example). i feel like all my lifetimes i'd have the exact same configuration and i'd always be me but the lifetimes help me perfect it
and the universe gives us all these souls worth certain roles that we need to hone in over time and lifetimes
because to me i CANNOT imagine my identity just changing.
so my fixation - bias tells me this is the only plausible reality
dont get me wrong, my identity is VERY MUCH beyond my fixations - but those are part of the picture

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

yes and i totally understand because my 4 fix feels the same
when i first learned about this reincarnation theory
i was like hell no
it threatened me
in a way
Well, i see identity as our fixations
The soul is free of these fixations
So I'd like to think that when we die you dont lose who you "were" in a lifetime, you just integrate it into the whole you as you gather awareness and expand
And in a way it doesnt make sense for your fixations to stay the same over your lifetimes
If the soul's purpose is to learn and expand as a result of experiencing
So its goal is to have as many different experiences as possible
Experiencing different perspectives etc

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

thats interesting because i don't think identity is our fixations. i think four's role in the world is to express identity which is a very important part of what makes any living being what it is. identity for a healthy four includes pontificating a lot about the identity of humanity, how animal spirits run through us, the fact that we all have a place in the wheel, etc. but the idea that identity is a FIXATION is actually very 9.
many 9s who are mistyping as fours have LECTURED me that they are a four but they got over their fixation by shedding their need for an identity
and i can see the beauty in what YOU are saying, but what those 9s don't realize is that it's their fixation (9 ) lending itself to the biased idea (mine is biased too) - that identity is some kind of fixation. because at the root of 9 is the need to shed it and be at one with the universe, without those boundaries caused by separation
but why it's beautiful when you say it is because you know you're a 9 and own who you are rather than lecture me

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Oh Im definitely not lecturing yeah lol
But you see
What I am saying now

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

but the reason i bring up lecturing is because those unhealthy and mistyped 9s show how they just cant process the idea that some people having a strong focus on identity actually in healthier levels is a necessary part of the wheel

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Was hard for me to accept and still is kind of strange and painful
Because Ive always been obsessed with my identity and Im attached to who i am
What I am saying now is theory. I dont WANT to shed my identity or feel the need to do it
Its just how I understand the Universe. My understanding of how the universe and consciousness and the idea of souls work

I see everyone as separate actually
Ive always seen myself as separate and disconnected

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

"If the soul's purpose is to learn and expand as a result of experiencing So its goal is to have as many different experiences as possible Experiencing different perspectives etc" Yes but this ^^ is specific to 9. and a very beautiful way of expressing it
but i will never in any lifetime occupy that role
The 9's soul purpose is those things but the 4's soul purpose is to express identity and at healthy levels or in certain configurations, it's identity of the whole species and the soul itself. but still - the world would not benefit from every soul being the same, per se.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

But it makes sense to me we are all an expression of a small puzzle of thr universe/consciousness. So it is natural and important to live it how we do, from a 3rd dimensional point of view

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

^ yes this
exactly
for me overcoming the fixation is not so much about overcoming but it's about channeling it to its greatest heights
and i think what you're expressing is you trying to channel YOUR fixation to its greatest heights
and the conflicts there are the 9 vs 4 conflict in yourself for sure

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

But let me ask. Does the soul have a fixation? Or does it develop it when it is "born" in this world?

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

i don't see the enneagrams as merely fixations. they are expressions of natural law
as above, so below
the fixation happens because we all occupy the beautiful transcendent version of some part of the wheel
and then when we become incarnate we separate from this wholeness because we are in a body
and 9s role is to fixate on anger about the separation

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

"and i think what you're expressing is you trying to channel YOUR fixation to its greatest heights" Im trying to be careful with this yes

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

four's role is to express the meaning of the separation
and even embody it

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

I don't share the same belief. I think the enneagram and its fixations are human like. Nothing to do with the soul

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

then why do the planets have personalities?
why astrology?

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

Because the planets are physical
And so are we
The soul is no
Not
They influence us apparently
Its been proved
Thr way i always understood enneagram is that we all deal with the this incarnation and separation of the soul from the Whole in different ways
And so the 9 types

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

however
you should watch this video

but ill explain the summary. the idea is that the universe is born and then it dies
after going through a life cycle (which is the personalities too, planets types whatever, we're all part of this cycle)
at the beginning and the end there is NOTHING AND EVERYTHING (nine)
it's all one, silent, nothing, empty entropy
but theres no separation
but you see - this is NOT the pinnacle of all goodness.
it's unity but at what cost? the loss of life
once you shed all boundaries, personality, and differences - you are left with NOTHING.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

But you said "nothing and everything"

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

so a healthy four is willing to see the similarity in all souls. they're able to FEEL that they are not some alien cut from another cloth, they're just as human as the next person but occupying the role of expressing separation.
but a healthy NINE is able to understand and feel on a SOUL level that separation is necessary for life. and that soul, and wholeness, still may be made manifest even with separation and differences that endure.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

So maybe its nothing because it all dissolves into a sea and it becomes a whole = everything

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

well yeah it's entropy. all things disappear
so everything becomes nothing
but the minute there is 'one thing' - type one - then you have natural law
which separates.
so you could argue we all (everything) came from the great void of nothing and entropy
and that is the ORIGIN of soul.
however once there is life you need separation. roles, natural law
which thus separates us into types and archetypes
archetypes are not 'fixation' merely.

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

Entropy isn't nothing. Entropy is disorder and "messiness".

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

enneagram expresses and explores how our archetype becomes a psychological problem
well what im talking about is nothing. you have to see the video
at the end there really is absolute zero nothing
and this is the void from which we all sprung.
so yes in a sense that is soul.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

But is there such a thing as nothing? How can something come out of nothing?

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

I know. I'm just saying. Entropy has specific meanings and if you use it wrong you'll have people arguing with good points

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

yeah entropy may be the wrong word, that was actually in a slightly different part of the video
but when all goes to sleep and all becomes nothing then- and only then - there is unity
and the longing for this is the dark side of nine as well as the light side. it is fixation.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

"so a healthy four is willing to see the similarity in all souls. they're able to FEEL that they are not some alien cut from another cloth, they're just as human as the next person but occupying the role of expressing separation. but a healthy NINE is able to understand and feel on a SOUL level that separation is necessary for life. and that soul, and wholeness, still may be made manifest even with separation and differences that endure." Sounds like these 2 types are opposites and yet i relate to both of them

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

haha yeah tritype
but at base youre still very much expressing 9 which is really interesting to see
because even with your four fix, when put up against a core four the difference in basic outlook which stems from fixation (and - the way i see it - ARCHETYPE AND NATURAL LAW) - is huge. a
i see fixation and enneagram health levels as one aspect of the archetype that all people embody

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

I'm not sure scientists know what nothing is exactly Rala but we do know the universe will probably collapse at some point and it has something to do with black holes. I'm not a physics major though but maybe somebody could start the topic in the science section

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

"and the longing for this is the dark side of nine as well as the light side. it is fixation." But thats the thing, i dont long for it, it scares me

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

arya it's beyond black holes. at the end of that video there arent even black hole.
it's beyond that
and it is scientific.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

It makes me feel in a way thst who i am now doesnt matter on the bigger scale and it makres me feel small and insignificant as well a sall my pain and past and etc

Volcana 4w3 8w7 5w6 Sp/Sx SeFi

yeah but you see it as "soul."
i don't see it as soul. i see soul as the life and differences in between the beginning and end

i could never see "soul" as having no roles, no archetypes, no boundaries. i see soul as being your archetypal role in the wheel of LIFE
our role in the DEATH of the universe is to become one, which is why 9 crowns the enneagram.

Thana 2w1 9w1 5w4 Sp/Sx NiTe

this makes sense. the soul is the higher calling of the ego, its deep actualization
im still formulating a response to ledyanoy's philosophy of mind question. Materiality of the mind and soul, near death experiences.

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

I see now what you re saying hmm

Arya 9w8 5w4 2w3 Sx/Sp NiTe

I'm not saying it's not scientific. I need to watch. But what I'm saying is that it's still a topic of exploration for scientists.
Rala I agree it's scary

Rala 9w1 6w7 4w3 Sp/Sx SeFi

It is
Hmm this made me think of something
You know the concept of soulmates. I always found it fascinating and of course I have a 4 fix so i found it romantic and wanted to believe in it and so I kept on searching for answers to understand it. And basically what made sense to me in the end is that a soul mate could be someone that on a soul level is very familiar to you because it is your souls are close together in the astral world or whatever. And by close together i mean very similar vibrations etc, cut from the same cloth like you said
Anyways, so maybe you are right
Maybe our soul's flavor matches who we are always gonna be when we incarnate
And it isnt actually entirely dictated by genes, environment etc.
This is very liberating to think about haha

**TBerg** · 10-27-2019, 09:27 PM

While I can see how Nineness may mean reaching towards Nothingness in some perspectives, I think that it is possibly an interpretation arising from our modern Scientistic worldview and not the result of learning what Nineness can be without being sucked into the black hole of modern thought. In modern times, the master category may be reductionism or deconstruction, but it is possible that these are parochial understandings of a brutalized materialist world in which we find ourselves. We may need to consider what older, less disenchanted, more introspective texts and traditions have to bring towards lending insight into the question of Nineness.

For example, the Bhagavad Gita has the ultimate avatar of God command General Arjuna to slay his enemies, because that is the law of the universe. The law states that we are not supposed to put our personal egoic needs, such as sympathy for enemies or hatred of injustice, in between ourselves and fate, because to do so is something like blasphemy against our highest duties. Thus we can see from a certain perspective, the idea of devotion to a single Beloved can bring us towards the bliss of full engagement with the Beloved in her (my bias) full majesty. In the case of Arjuna, his ultimate Beloved was Lord Krishna, the ultimate avatar of God, who told him that he needed to fully engage with his own place in the universe instead of collecting blockages to his ability to do so.

Also, from a Christian perspective, the idea of Agape can be put to the task of accepting the judgment handed to us in our lives and fully accepting our toils and woes as a part of ascetic bliss. Thus our egos can be annihilated, but something remains to push us ever upward towards more and more devotion to every challenge handed to us. We become evermore tied to whatever messages we receive from the prayers we send to God, the Ultimate Beloved. It is a matter of letting ourselves be evermore transformed by this relationship and become someone who tries to fill a role with evermore joy in his heart.

But, as I see in some of my life experiences, there does need to be a barrier for the love I want to actually work. Because I need a degree of sublime terror to send me to bliss. I cannot become comfortable with it, or the polarity is destroyed. Thus I depend on someone who will not tolerate sloth and will relish finding evermore ways of challenging me and enticing me without taking my feelings into account, but on pure account of her lust on a certain level. I love the idea of discomfort and fear and even dread, because that makes me feel alive with passion and takes me out of a boring comfort zone. Thus I love the idea of a Beloved who will keep challenging me to keep up, and I will praise her for it and hope she doesn't pat me on the head, because it is that badass attitude that brings me the greatest joy I have ever imagined. Thus the sloth may need jungle predators to thrive.

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Role of Archetype in the Cosmos, Astrology, Enneagram. Conversation between Mods.

Role of Archetype in the Cosmos, Astrology, Enneagram. Conversation between Mods.

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