What is Se, really?

[Animal]

Jung's original concepts were strong, but his descriptions in general left much to be desired and he admitted his work was not finished. Nonetheless, the foundational basis of the Se type was realism, with emphasis on Se leads being street smart aesthetes.

Unfortunately, this foundation was soon dropped as Se became the garbage dump of MBTI. Se leads were classified as undisciplined sportos, slutty partygoers and outgoing morons who need food and sex NOW. Socionics redeemed it somewhat by focusing on force and volition, though they still left out many of the finer points which would have humanized the type beyond a brainless conquerer that depends on a Ni lead to tell them where to go next.

Finally, CognitiveType.com touched on elements that were unexplored before, such as focus, flow and a Trickster myth. On the other hand, the original description ignored realism and volition altogether in favor of directionless thrill-seeking and random stunts. Thankfully, the author has created a method by which to type people with great accuracy, and thus his descriptions continuously evolve as data shows up. The description is ever-improving, and many Se-heavy people have been contributing ideas to this process.

So, what is Se? What is its most base essence, and how does this look in actual people? What separates it from the other functions?

Here, I'll share my thoughts as they come. This is not 'starting from the ground up' but just logging various aspects, until I can organize it later. Feel free to add your own, critique, bounce off ideas, etc.

[Animal]

Pattern recognition is Pe. Pi places them in contextAddiction vs. Drug Experimentation

[Quindary]

I appreciate this description. It's the extension of the flipbook metaphor I have always used for Se/Ni, except extending the "pages" for Se into something real, vivid and experiential rather than just the basic dots in a construct. It reads very much accurate.

[Animal]

Auburn's new description is amazing! I only had a few reservations which I discussed on CT on the public forum. I will post it here.

https://cognitivetype.com/se-behaviorism-mythology/articulating the meaning of P. goal focus

[Animal]

I posted this there, too, in response to BeraDaevamy cause,some (not all)separation

[Animal]

overleader

[Animal]

Just wrote this into a facebook comment and figured I'd save it here. Re: my Beta NF mistype.
__

I mistyped. I am not the kind of person who types as "EIE in Socionics, SeFi in CT, ISFP in MBTI, FiN in Jung" etc - I search for an underlying cohesive meaning between the systems. No matter how long it takes to find the common thread and the real meat of the thing, once i'm hooked I'll dig to the bottom.

Originally in 2012, a great friend taught me MBTI and typed me ENFP, but I never related to Ne "possibilities" etc. I read Jung and a bunch of MBTI stuff, and soon moved to INFP followed shortly by ISFP. When I encountered Socionics, I did a lot of reading and I was more sure than ever that I was a Gamma and that I was much more Se-Ni than I was Ne-Si. Everyone agreed; since about 2014 I don't think anyone has thought I'm Ne. But when I got into WSS and other big socionics groups, they said I couldn't be ESI because of their rigidness and how emotionally open I was. A lot of people including Jack saw EIE or IEI in me - and I understood why, and after arguing quite a lot about how much I relate to Gamma, I gave it a fair chance. Still, I kept side-eyeing Gamma SF, because it's much more in line with my values and more. I worked hard to be good with words, whereas art was a first language; there's no need for verbiage between me and the page. I didn't care about social justice or causes til I got much older and was too sick to leave the house - normally I was out there pushing my weight to get what I want for me and mine. As a kid, I had a music career and practiced up to 12 hours a day with various aspects of music and performance, but I was also excelling on a few sports teams. I always had a direct visceral pipeline to the arts. I had to give up sports so I could take my career to the next level by the time I was 13.

The problem with SEE, for me, was that I've always had my own long term vision and goal for my life, and I always follow through on that trajectory. I am not distractible in the long term, nor do I need a Ni lead to tell me what my long term visions are. (That said, my father is Ni lead and we are very close, so I won't deny that his influence played a part in my clarity and persistence; but now those traits are mine.) I simply could not see the profile of "momentary sports person who can't see past their nose." But I related to the inner workings of the function, to Fi second, Te, and Ti polr. Despite that I'm a very good student, and have an easy time intellectually, I'm not good at parsing out abstract concepts and using the perfect words to explain them. So the structure fit, and definitely NOT Ne because I'm pragmatic, visceral, direct etc-- my talent is not in wordplay, visionary 'what ifs,' etc.

So everyone just shoved me in the Beta NF box and argued with me for so long that I gave it a shot, since both ESI and SEE were not clicking. But then me and my group of close typology friends started examining trends, physical features, and more to determine people's types, and we all retyped ourselves. Around that time I found cognitivetype.com, where people are typed based on their movements and signals; though the forum at large does address psychology quite well. I noticed that his celeb typings back then were identical to some of mine , which no one else agreed with ! So my friends and I sent in videos, and ALL of their typings, that my group came up with, were exactly precisely correct -- except mine. I came out as SeFi. And I was so glad I did, because in so many ways I knew that I embodied Se, but I felt like nobody had addressed it correctly yet. The descriptions always had some bullshit, like MBTI "SEE likes to party" or Socionics "SEE cant have long term plans" -- which doesnt make sense for a functioning adult. (That said, I am VERY much into long term plans, more than most people, and I "party" less than most people, though I have had a wild visceral life --- but I'm all about hunting-preying with guys, outdoors, art, goals etc -- not so much about random meaningless partying, which I can't stand.. I'd rather watch paint dry than have meaningless conversation with people I don't care about, not exaggerating.) But when it comes down to it, Se is VISCERAL, and being in the flow. I also have no problem using my force as needed, subtly or less subtly. It's not overdone the way it is for Se HA.

I have always had way too much trouble socially to be Fe. My social trouble is gamma trouble, to some degree - bluntness, directness, preference for serious conversation, not knowing how to be fake. I can play it up sometimes but to me it's more of a joke or a necessity in the moment (4D Fe) but not something I actually value. There is simply no universe in which I would actually fit the real meaning of Fe. I'm not good at political persuasion, or any other kind of persuasion. No matter how many facts I memorise, I can't convince a drowning man to buy a raft from me. My father, a real NiFe, can sell water to a drowning man. This simply is not me. I always knew on many levels that Fe was out of the question due to my exclusive, keep to myself, nature. But among friends I'm a little sunny fluffball who will jump to defend them. So SEE really is a good fit, with the caveat that I come from a highly intelligent family and I'm a very ORIGINAL person, who is self made. I never watched tv in my life (didnt like the noises it made and how it made me feel). My family had tvs in every room but I didn't want it. I would rather read, write in my diary and sing to my tape recorder in the woods. I was 100% adventurous but not invested in 'culture' or 'trends' the way Betas are, especially Fe. Basically I'm a socially introverted Se, who is a vessel through which carnal passion, emotion and arts emerge, with tons of energy - but not a smooth talking, socially aware, persuasive Fe valuer.

I have been practicing writing online every day for 10 years now and I've gotten much much better. I keep myself growing by arguing about advanced topics such as typology and politics - which I'm invested in but also which require some intellectual distance. It's because I had a vision for a novel and while I could talk a lot, my words were often the wrong words at the wrong time, a total mess. What you see now is the result of CONSTANT, focused PRACTICE. At age 30 my verbal presentation was very raw.

[janie]

Great post. I've only read half of it so far, tbh, but it's inspired me to put some of my own thoughts out. Currently, there is disagreement over my perceiving axis between practitioners of CT and Socionics. I know this isn't a type-me thread, so I'm not actually asking for this matter to be resolved here. I'll just share some things that I personally experience, which I at least suspect might be Se-related. Some might be a combination of Fi-S, some may be Ne, and some may just be me, or be everyone. lol. But here goes.

The part about Animal hits the ball--I related to it, and I did something similar today. I go out on the balcony on my yoga mat and do things. Sometimes lying in the sun, sometimes whatever stretches I want, yoga poses, and some basic gymnastic moves, and I feel exactly the same way about it as you explained with the ball. I am not especially coordinated--if anything, below average. Nevertheless, there is enjoyment of the process of the visceral *learning* and experience. It's nice because I'm generally very in my head and overthink things, and I experience Se as a nice change because "when you're Se-ing, you're not thinking". It's more visceral or primal. And useful for present-moment meditation. Simple. (I could see how the simple-mindedness stereotypes could grow out of that).

My boyfriend prefers to stay in his free time and watch movies or play video games. He complained that the chair was too hard, and I'm like, so move your body more than sit. lol. I hate TV, too. Well, in Europe it isn't all bad. But I grew up in the States, and sure my mom parked me and my siblings in front of the TV, so it became our habit, but upon giving it up for Lent at 10, I realized how much more I could do if I didn't watch TV, so since then I've watched it only sparingly. If I do watch TV or movies, I prefer nonfiction. Because from the truth, or reality, I can always absorb something. Even if it's "boring." I'm not saying I watch paint dry, lol. I am very introverted and sensitive (physically & emotionally), but I do want stimulation, just the kind I like. I have very little patience for household chores. They make me spend time doing things that are only going to get undone right away, anyway, so I will have to spend more of my life doing them, as opposed to something that stimulates me, makes me experience more of life, which is enjoyable. I do appreciate high-quality works of fiction once in awhile, though, too.

Sensing or Intuitive preference?
I am still waiting for help from someone on refining what the true difference is between sensing and intuitive preference. It's not what those online quizzes say (on which I usually score about 70% iNtuitive.) To me, objects are literal, and concepts are derived from them. (As opposed to concepts are literal, and objects are charicatures of them?) So maybe that means my first perceiving function is a Sensing one (meaning it's Se. I am 100% a Fi dominant).

Being that the way it is, I can overcome my "out of sight, out of mind" tendency by placing objects right where I will physically see them, and then remember the responsibility associated with them, that I'd otherwise forget. Very neat environments look cute and nice, but are not conducive to my actually getting required things done.

Being in touch with my own body and health (or is this Si?)
People say desire for comfort is Si. I don't know. Wouldn't that be in a "wanting the comforts of what's fmailiar" way? But I think we all have that at least a little. For me, it's more real-time bodily awareness, and something that has happened as I've gotten older, and have experienced health problems due to my former unhealthy lifestyle.

Liking to walk around in bare feet. I also run in barefoot shoes. It's so nice.

According to CT, Se is "Proactive Concrete Perception". This means it is the function which absorbs literal information without intentional modification. I've always kind of thought that was important. I don't know what this is functionally, but although I am a feeler, perceiver, and have a wild imagination, I've always been suspect of imposing my interpretation on things, and then presenting that as a given. I feel like, everyone has a right to their own interpretations of reality, and mine is just mine. So when communicating things to others, it is best to present the unarguable reality the way it is, and keep my interpretations personal and with a grain of salt. It's also important for me to perceive it "purely" and then freely decide whether and which interpretations I choose to apply to it. I like being as realistic as possible, and hate knowingly deceiving myself (or others, which happens by extension, and is a Fi value). To some extent, this also makes me wary of "overusing" Ni to come to final conclusions.

I also get that Se "vivid realism" and "persistence effect" described in CT.

Personally, I do associate my need for immersion in experiences with escapism. Partly because I take somewhat clinical, or at least "healer" perspective. So every time I want to take a substance or do anything that changes my experience to a more pleasurable one, I try to stop and become aware of the impulse instead of just acting on it. I explore the emotions and allow them to be (Fi).

I love new things. They really make me do Pe perk-ups. I'm like a kid in a candy store, and my Fi gets lots of new stuff to sort through and judge (hehe). The "What is this?" process. I like to use all of my senses.
I *value* having an eye out on all things at all times, even if I don't always do it.
New experiences also make time seem to go by slower. As we age, living in routines make our brains sort of not record every moment as much, because most are pretty redundant, so time seems to go by more quickly.
Sometimes when I describe things or places I've been, people react like, "It's just an ordinary, everyday .... " And I'm like, but it's *new*. *To me*. =)

I do have a lot of stereotypically Ne tendencies. I see like eight sides to everything, aware of a multitude of possibilities, and am very wary of jumping to premature conclusions. Daydream a lot, have trouble paying attention, get caught up in my own world (but that's more introvert/Fi). I say lots of silly things. But when I see things, and go off on tangential associations or questions from them, they have to "make sense" to me, how the one is related to the other. This can be boring to some people. (I need an example but don't have one at the moment.)

Apparently, I come across as very Si, and quite Ne to many people. To me, it's difficult, but if I had to choose, I would say I have a more "visercal" (even if not -sensual-) experience, than "somehow both fairy and stodgy" which is how the Delta description sounds to me lol maybe I misunderstood. I love to tell stories like a Delta, although I like to tell them with Se vivid realism. My sensory functionality feels paired with my feeling function in a...physical, expriential, primal, base, almost chthonic way. Although I can be very socially awkward, which is kind of anti-Se, I think it is due to my parents' failure to socialize me well. I could go on, about my trauma history and how it migh relate to my lack of conforming to the, what I call "stereotypes" about Se, but I'm trying to to stray off-topic too much.

[janie]

I'm not trying to make this subthread too long, but I just wanted to say, Animal, that is so interesting what you wrote about how you know what's going to happen, especially regarding a love object. I'm nowhere near that good, yet in my own way really relate to that. As well as that one thread about the Enneagram type 4. I think I should go over there next and write about my own experiences.

Also, the way you described pattern recognition as a Se lead. Over the few hours since reading that, it started to click in my own experience how that works. Makes sense.

[Animal]

Awesome janie ! I'm glad it made sense. Really looking forward to your thoughts on four too

[Animal]

Feel free to make the subthread long, haha... or even to start a new post ! Don't worry.. I absolutely love the feedback and input, and thoughts about how you relate or don't.

[Daeva]

emotion behind Se and the emotional control of Fe

[Animal]

This is two more posts about my own typing, responding to Jack and some WSS information. Originally I posted these on Auburn's forum, heretopics real friend

[Animal]

am

1. Force
The SEE is most notable for their fiercely independent desire to do what they want when they want. Possessed with a strong, challenging and largely upbeat energy, they are usually the first to act impulsively on a situation according to their will, confronting their immediate reality to make it advantageous to them and those they care for. SEEs see success in being able to resist opposing forces and prevail on their own resourcefulness and determination, being their own boss and fighting off those who would command them. When placed in a social hierarchy, the only level satisfactory for the SEE is one where they answer to no one, resulting in them climbing straight for the top. In such activities, SEEs tend to show great gusto, as they love the vitality of pitting themselves against a hard problem and pushing through to the other side. For this reason, SEEs are regularly seen as gregarious go-getters, rising to the challenge and usually reaping the rewards. In the social sphere, SEEs tend to dominate with their ability to steer a conversation the way they want it to go. They tend to be quickly noticed in a room of people for this reason and people can find them captivating. Similarly, their natural social confidence is the source of much of their ambition, with SEEs conquering, not merely through force, but through the hearts and minds of those they have won over.

[SnatchYourWeave]

LOL WSS banned me pretty much 2 or 3 months after I joined. Most of what I've said didn't play into their Fe collective theatrics and I've been credited or blamed with forcing others to think of the theory first and apply it objectively absent how and what they think a type should be. Well... ok, it was more than that. It's because of my Se antics. I've learned much after the fact after I received the banhammer that over the years, WSS purged a lot of real SLEs and it's because of their Se they've all managed to get themselves banned. SLEs don't change their stance in order to win, they're actually steadfast in their views. Hindsight, those SLEs must have realized what I've came to realize, that there's no point in arguing with someone or a group who only wants to win so much that they'll change the terms any time you hold them accountable to them. Rules were flimsy and only served those who were accepted and liked but consequences got doled out against those who challenged the validity of the structure. I made no secret that I thought the group was just another nasty Fe cabal wanting to preserve their collective bias in order to be "right" and I said many times they're not experts and shouldn't be lying to others by saying they're experts. My takeaway was I was being entertained by getting under their collective skins. I'm guessing the SLEs who came before me probably did the same thing and that's what got them unceremoniously banned.

You wouldn't be Se mobilizing because you don't make idle threats. Superid is the repressed REAL motivation and it's extreme in expression/output because it's repressed and it always comes out in fucked up ways. Mobilizing Se, especially in EIE, is truly shitty and brutal, unlike base/creative Se because it's incubated by Te (in ego/superego), which is good at deploying it. I said nobody should ever trust an NF with power, especially EIE because they have mobilizing Se and they seek out power to pad their manufactured Fe image, not because they're actually competent or have any effective leadership skills. Nobody who is such a slave to their feelings, feelings which they don't stand to be corrected on- should ever be in a position of authority (like Hilary Clinton). EIE is so preoccupied with the imagined faults that they miss what does needs to be fixed. You're not preoccupied with imagined faults, you're wanting to improve upon skillset which would then diminish the faults. I could tell off the bat that you were Se ego.

I think Fe is akin to lying through their fucking teeth. Lying is a form of abdication because if you lie, you have to adjust your actions to comply with the worldview you've created for another person, rather than the one you made by refining your own mind. It's always the vast sea of Beta NFs that impose on others that their views are the correct ideology, irrespective of logic. If you don't look and/or behave the way they idealized a concept, then you can't possibly be it. You're something else because you don't fit into their ideology and it's only their ideology that's salient to them.

They didn't like that I'm SLE and couldn't reconcile that I'm SLE because they've romanticized that SLEs love Beta NFs. In reality, that's not true. That's not how duality works and even Gulenko discusses how SLE rejects and don't accept Beta NFs to be on their level. I'll bet that I'm not the only SLE who didn't fit into their ridiculous Fe idealization of how an SLE is supposed to be. Plenty of other SLEs dislike and distrust Beta NFs for the same reasons I've given. They didn't like that I constantly exposed how Beta NFs are delusional and irresponsible, they want the propaganda but not the fallout. They're too glorified and idealistic (like Hitler and Robespierre) and gun ho to get up on the podium to incite civil war but can't deal with the body count or be shocked that it actually turned out to be a bloodbath.

[Animal]

Awesome I appreciate that you could tell so quickly and you understood how I work. These people seem to miss what's right in front of them.
I also agree that they over-do and force the idea of duality when it's not really how things work. Sure, there are benefits to taking information from your dual, but this doesn't mean your dual will be your soulmate.

[Animal]

My website speaks for itself.on a random blog

[SnatchYourWeave]

LOL Jung had some interesting ideas but his descriptions were total shit. He was Ni Fe, clearly showed he valued Se but Se is in the gutter, so there's no clarity.

Se is treated as primal but I don't think that's correct, it's Si that's primal. Si cares about comforts and safety. Se in the cognitive function sense is the ability to grasp what's tangibly happening in real-time; to distinguish what real and present, but also, what's not there. Few people seem to understand this very simple and obvious notion that what's there is what's there and what's not is not. How it manifests in Se leads as a type is their innate ability to manipulate the material plane, which is often abstractly called "willpower." To me, Se isn't some weird, spiritual, out of body type of thing. I see things the way it is, so I take a less than glamorous view that it is what it is, don't look too much into it. It's because I see the situation for what's happening in real time that I'm able to determine what I can do to make my desires become a reality. Non-Se egos view Se as being forceful and domineering, and therefore Se is branded as distasteful, and akin to brute force. They erroneously say it's pressure, but Se isn't the pressure to act, Se is the decision to act. The decision to act is based upon the information that unfolds in real-time. This is the maxim of why Se is associated with reality.

[Animal]

I love this post and couldn't agree more!
I had thought of the word "primal" differently, but this is an interesting way to think of it. I like what you say here. And I agree, comforts and safety are not on my radar. I'm able to do things that look like 'huge risks' to others because I have a strong assessment of what is real and what isn't.

[SnatchYourWeave]

What's ironic is the typology "community" and I HATE community with ever fiber of my material existence; is that they collectively brand Se egos, especially Se leads, as being stupid because Se is erroneously categorized primal and primitive. No, if we were primal and primitive, we'd stay in the caves and be gatherers and be comfortable with shitty Si which won't budge to change circumstances even if they're forced. Without Se, we wouldn't make it out the caves and climbed our way up the top of the food chain.

Se lead have to ignore Si, because we cannot utilize functions going the opposite direction, but we're still good at Si. It's just not considered because it would slow down or even corrupt Se from operating properly.