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    Rants about Enneagram Types

    I was ranting in PM about various enneagram types and comparisons between them. I thought it might be helpful to post. So I started this thread. Share your rants! Don't overworry about accuracy. We can debate and respond in the thread or in the comments. Just share your thoughts and impressions.

    #2
    NINES.

    [Re: "9s have thin skin."]

    That isn't true about type 9. Nine is a gut type- they have thick skin just like the other gut types 8 and 1. Those three types are the badasses; nines just tend to hold back until provoked, or until something matters to them, whereas the 8 charges in and the 1 has to fix everything. Nines have a lot of anger and many are aware of it. People with "thin skin" are more likely to be head types (not all, but many) because it's a more "unstable" triad rooted in fear. Fives are avoidant, sixes are alternately appeasing and rebellious, and 7s often lash out verbally.

    Riso Hudson is mostly full of shit and describes the types horribly. Early writers like Almaas and Maitri get it. Ichazo calls 9 the "over non conformist" and 4 "argumentative."

    RH came in later and botched the whole thing and the early writers even said that. Naranjo, Ichazo etc were angry about it. It was not only botched but also plagiarized.

    And sorry, nothing personal lol, it's a very common misconception because of RH, but when you think of 9 think of a quiet badass. Or a graceful person with a temper- like a cat or a swan.

    Gut types also are centered around justice, and themes of good vs. bad. So nines will hold back their energy often, feeling like there's no room for them. But if they find something a real injustice they will fight and it energizes them

    Bernie Sanders or Bjork are 9s

    Thats true they don't usually initiate I suppose, unless they have full trust

    My husband is a 9 and we struggled with his typing for years. He is probably the best enneagram typer in the world lol and he is writing a book on it over time. And also in school for psychology. But he couldnt type himself because he just could not reconcile his 9 typing when he is so in touch with his anger. But we found earlier good descriptions and bam there it is.

    I love initiating. I'm 8 fixed I only get with 9s lol.

    I want to be dominated from underneath

    I like a quiet badass type who lets me take the lead but basically won't take any shit from me or anyone else.

    Haha for sure. Theyre so fucking hot

    My husband is especially graceful and beautiful but no one, and I mean no one, mistakes him for weak - at least in person

    He is so quiet but strong presence

    and dynamic physical appearance with cool clothes

    And ISTP so when he does talk it's spot on

    These later writers, like RH and all their "circle," and Fauvres and David Gray and so on.. they all say that 9s can't type themselves and type all over the enneagram. Well, thats true but only because 9s don't relate to the horrible descriptions they are shown. Why? Because the descriptions don't describe them. As soon as you show them Almaas or show them examples of real 9s who are correctly typed, they type at 9 and never look back.

    Same with sixes. Naranjo's 9 is not that good but the 6 is better and the real sixes tend to relate to it.

    But they relate even more to Almaas.

    also re: thin-skinned head types. They can also be VERY badass of course. But they're not as "stable" of a character like gut types. Gut types can be moody and head types can be "slow and steady" but it's like... a vibe. There's a more electric energy to a head type and more of a grounded energy with gut.

    Comment


      #3
      FOUR VS. SEVEN

      I run a forum https://archetribe.com - we don't use wings because we find it's overkill and people show symptoms of both wings, and like most 7s don't relate to 7w6 for example because it's just badly described (again) .... but in other forums before i would have said 4w3

      [Re: Do you get along with 7s?]

      well... let's put it this way. I have awesome best friends who are guys, that lasted my whole life, but for some reason I end up having issues with women because they don't do direct conflicts I guess? Like they hide shit from me that they're upset about and then do weird underhanded shit, and I'm too self absorbed and don't notice unless it's in front of my face. So most of my female friends end up like betraying me and acting like it's my fault even though I did nothing. But the ones that work have been mostly 7s.


      the early descriptions also explain fours are interested in deeper intellectual topics and argumentative, so it makes sense why some 4s think they're 7s

      and vice versa

      but i literally never leave the house unless i have to work. i write 400 page novels and work on them for years. i have endless patience to dig into my psyche and refine it. 7s have more real-world energy.

      and i will sit with my pain, by myself and unmoving for years.

      and even though i'm argumentative on topics i know a lot about (like 5s sorta), i come off very shy in person

      unless i know you

      i admire 7s performative energy

      my husband and i both wish we were 7s half the time

      like it's easy for me to talk on and on, because i'm going deep into a topic or unleashing my inner psyche. but i suck at just short conversation back and forth. i can't "Shoot the shit." 7s can seduce like anyone.

      it's hard to get outside the "depths" and into real time.

      My father said it best. We both are musicians. He said some musicians "entertain the audience" (7s) and others "allow the audience to watch" while they show what's inside them. (That would be me.)

      [Re: sitting with your pain & 7s not doing this.]

      exactly. i mean i know a 4-fixed 7 who does this much more than other 7s might, but it's still not the same i feel. she's tougher than me somehow.

      how do you escape?

      i don't .. know how to escape

      i connect deeply with people but i have trouble like.. just hanging. 7s can also pull people in but remain distant without unveiling all their deep secrets. i find that descriptions don't explain this well. 7s are actually very private . they can be open about facts or whatever, but there's like a big castle around their inner heart.

      and an army protecting it.

      i kind of rely on my 5 fix... i connect through information with a wider crowd. like enneagram, something that i really care about and that i connect to on a deep level. before i found enneagram.... i could barely even write words very well. i used enneagram forums to practice writing better so that i can publish my books. fours can struggle to communicate what's inside because it's like too deep, too complicated. and it causes a lot of frustration

      but i think the real problem is not complication.. it's shame. there's so much deep shame about feelings, desires, what really matters; so it's like the body and the mind create a communication block and you end up feeling choked


      theres like a phenomenon where fours get "naked" (emotionally or physically) to show you who they are, but you still see them hiding their face behind something in shame

      Click image for larger version  Name:	8088fb455aa97d2955fd45620cd195fd.jpg Views:	0 Size:	128.0 KB ID:	10654

      whereas a 7 will show her face full, like HERE I AM. Take it or leave it! and yet, you can never find her heart... or if you do, you can't hold on to it. now you see me now you don't. that's 7.

      that's me in the pic btw.

      7s will tease you with a glimpse of their vulnerability and then they are on the other side of the earth.

      or maybe on the moon.

      Comment


        #4
        i'm a four. i figured it out like 10 years ago. and i have a lot of thoughts on what the truth of four is, vs some of the bullshit out there online but ofc it's my thoughts, my experience; im always up for a challenge too, and learning more but the writer who really gets it is Almaas.

        four isn't about seeking identity - it's about having a strong sense of your own identity, as a separate entity from others. the four may spend their life striving to EXPRESS that identity, but they feel sure that they know what it is. that's why holy origin is the holy idea - because it incorporates the four's originality with the idea that you're still part of the same cloth as everyone else, which is a huge learning curve for the four--- because it means shedding some of your highly specific sense about who you are.

        Comment


          #5
          Long rant from CT.

          FOUR VS. NINE

          About Winona and TiSe – I see. She does have a wide smile so that could make sense. I also find her very beautiful and I have this problem where some TiSe’s just drive me mad. so I could see it just for that reason alone.

          Some people may say TiSe and four lead is problematic but that is because they’re scraping the surface of either system. Even before I found CT, I typed my husband as TiSe and later he was confirmed here at CT, as TiSe. But I was pretty alert to what it actually meant, and there are many cross-dressing, musical, or glamorous Ti leads as Auburn has pointed out. My husband is one of those, an artistic beauty with a very original persona. We really struggled with his enneagram even though he’s probably the best typer on the planet! but it’s very hard to type yourself. In the end, our body language system revealed he’s a 9; and we also rediscovered older descriptions by Almaas and Ichazo which are far more accurate than the usual junk you read online. Riso & Hudson ruined the meaning of enneagram and everything that came after them has been shallow, with meanings of types all mucked up. So my husband, a 9 lead and TiSe, has a very individualistic, unique outlook and a glamorous way of dressing, and artistic flare. But he knew he didn’t quite fit the maniacal over-assertion of individual opinions & personality that fours display, nor was he aggressive enough for a classically performative type like 7. Most modern nine descriptions deny them any form of individuality or uniqueness, and also claim that nines cannot get angry.

          This is all bullshit. Plenty of 9s are very in touch with their own anger- but they tend to under-assert themselves in terms of their libido and aggression because they are insecure that they aren’t “enough.” They’re out of touch with holy love – the sense of blissful existence and ubiquitous love – so they can have the sense that some things are better than others (a very gut-type thing to do, to go around “judging” things as good or bad, and seeking justice and goodness, being angry about injustice) – and they will often feel they themselves are “bad” or not enough, or don’t have something good to offer the way that another person does. It can feel like an exercise in futility to assert themselves when they are disillusioned by a sense of ‘lack’ – but this does not mean that they don’t get angry. In fact, anger gives them a sense of vitality that motivates them and can break them out of this disillusionment. So, many later descriptions like RH really muck this up by attributing “lack” and “comparativeness” to four. Four is out of touch with holy origin and feel that their origin is different from the rest; separate, unique, and disconnected. Fours however don’t compare themselves to the other humans because they are just… separate. So, now that I’ve explained this, perhaps it might make sense how Ti would fit with four or nine both — with four, the Ti lead would emphasize their unique picky perspective, and with nine, it would emphasize something closer to what Auburn describes as the void – although his description from the old website was very 5ish in nature – for the 9, it is more like a very big emphasis on reductiveness.

          There is no reason though, that a Ti lead cannot be a four, since it is a type that is often overtly unique and individualistic in mindset. My husband is highly individualistic and expressive as a TiSe 9. You can tell a 9 vs a 4 apart because fours are frustratedly MANIC about expressing themselves at every moment, as if pulling out teeth to show their full guts whereas 9s can be more depressive or gutty and sensuous, and also can be firm. 9s can have happy wild moods and be silly and giddy, but they are unlikely to have that constant “frustrated mania” that fours display. Anyway, Winona strikes me as more of a manic 4 than another type, and you can see it in her eyes, which are wide open almost TOO far, as if popping out of her skull. She also appears to have strong 7, jacking up this quality. We are still working on our visual typing system, and right now, I'm wondering if Jared Leto might be a 4 lead as well. He is classically typed as 3 but it doesn't work. He's far too... weird, off kilter, asocial. He can be social in spurts but he's not really engagingly adaptable the way 3s are. He's more, this is me, take it or leave it. Threes can have insanely strong personalities, and strong opinions, but there's still something smooth about the way they engage. Not so for Jared. He's withdrawn and pulls into himself. I'm still working on his typing though, because I'm kind of obsessed with his mind. There’s no one else quite like him. And the mania and frustration is not quite disruptive enough for me to be certain just yet that it’s four. But maybe it has to do with his other fixes. As our visual system develops, we will get clarity on this.
          Last edited by Arch; 07-04-2021, 03:23 PM.

          Comment


            #6
            Jared Leto, not a 3 imo... just too deep of a guy, detached. He's pretty contemplative, and a little go along too. Game player, not so disruptive or against-the-grain, but def his own guy. Seems aware of whatever 'scene' he's in though, aware of big pictures/politics and the philosophy of life. Slows down like a wordy stoner after getting engaged, riding above it all. Nobody's close to getting irritated at him, in fact he's rather likable! Guess where i'm going.
            Last edited by Full_fathom; 10-22-2020, 10:30 PM.

            Comment


            • Daeva
              Daeva commented
              Editing a comment
              Sorry to hear about your parent. That's rough to go through.

              I don't think it's a fair comparison with the mouth thing. You should hear out Animal's take on the different subtleties in singing. It's not a layman's take. She knows the craft in and out. We're not talking about body shapes.

              Type 4 is not about emotional withdrawal. It is more about expression of the unique identity via emotional language. Animal's music is a good example.

            • Animal
              Animal commented
              Editing a comment
              Full_fathom Sorry about your parent. I hope they make a speedy recovery.

            • Full_fathom
              Full_fathom commented
              Editing a comment
              Thank you both very much.

            #7
            fours don't leave much to decipher. they will tell you who they are
            2s like to use mystery and enigma to seduce
            some of them
            and 6s can appreciate someone who untangles their brain and 7s can take work to decipher their feelings

            those mysterious complicated types just mistype at four. most of the time, a real four is obsessing over a creative project and all the details (line to 1, and surrounded by 5 and 3, competency types) - and obsessing about the person they desire. Not about their friends, not about their image, just about desire. Desire actually is the sin of four, not colloquial "envy." In french these were the same word and it kind of gets lost in translations etc. Also they wanted to fit it neatly into the 7 sins. But fours don't sit around envying other people. they are too busy being from another planet and analyzing themself. They DESIRE relentlessly. Most people will say they relate to desire and they must be a four when i first say that, but you have to see how it plays out to really claim to relate to it. It's far beyond "most people care more about romance than about their friends." It's a constant, relentless, entire identity and art around their obsession, and introjecting the other person's traits as part of their own so they can be closer, etc
            with four it doesnt take much to decipher their feelings or the identity that they shove in your face

            people try to decipher 9s, only to find that 9s are actually just simple, they are what they are. so the apparent empty space is just something a 9 perceives as their own lack. people fill in the blanks with all sorts of stories, but a 9's gift is that they don't believe those stories.
            the down side is then they feel like there's something lacking, everyone has a story except them
            so others also impose this on 9s, thinking there's something there that maybe the 9 doesnt agree with
            but what IS there is a keen observation of who people really are, behind their stories, and the base humanity that unites everyone
            Ichazo called 9 the 'believer/doubter' because of dynamics like this. 6s are more likely to have a lot of ideas and stories
            they are in the middle of the mental center

            so if you see someone who is unsure of their identity or their role in the world, but quite sure of their feelings, and seems to tell simple answers when you ask, thats a 9
            you see someone who is acting mysterious and dropping hints, thats a 2
            you see someone running from their feelings, thats a 7
            or not wanting to share them with YOU lol
            you see a complex person who needs to be sorted out a bit, but also will have TONS of helpful info about everything and probably works industriously too, thats a 6
            someone who hides behind a wall of enigma to protect their secrets may be a 5, though they also tend to be pretty straight up... but silence is their weapon
            someone who tells you who they are, all their ideas, why they're doing it, what they feel about it - thats a four
            fours are not enigmas wrapped in riddles. fours will find any way possible to express their deepest sentiments, ones that are beyond words, hence the reliance on the arts
            some 3s are quite brilliant, but also can be pseudo intellectuals who insist they are 5s
            if you see someone who looks completely different in every picture and seems annoyed by any category you give them, like there's more to them, they may be a three. threes are used to chameleon-ing for work, to get ahead etc, and they sometimes don't know how to stop even in an enneagram group
            they WANT to be authentic, a lot of the time, but they just don't know how underneath all those layers. after pretending in order to achieve for so long, which layer is the "real me?"
            they will wonder.
            so they also can be way more enigmatic than fours
            for four, think jared leto, milo yiannopolus, winona ryder. ask them how they feel about something and you will find out. in fact, don't ask. just wait
            wait about 1 minute
            ask them why they chose this career. they will tell you, and the answer will NOT change EVER, because it was deeply considered.
            and there's often a tragic loss involved.
            so yeah, i'd throw out the enigma thing for four.
            a relatively enigmatic four would be marina ambrovic, but again, ask her why, or what, or who she is, and she will tell you
            they have a line to 1 and 2. there's a righteous reason for everything, and a need for connection to others
            connection by revealing who they are

            re: 9, i should specify, "simple" does not mean stupid. it just means they have a quick way of stripping excess bullshit away
            and the rest of us are drowning in excess bullshit. so it's wise to listen to your local 9.
            challenge them and show them that it's ok to spout their anger and their opinion, and their anger won't kill you. then you will learn a lot about yourself from them

            but look out. everyone on every forum mistypes at four and there's a reason. on the forum where fauvres and russ hudson (the modern "writers") hang out, they did a poll once when i was there, for people's core type, and 85% chose 4. this is because in their textbooks, they really over-humanize the type, and dehumanize most of the other types as caricatures. fours are deep, artistic, amazing, blahblalbhablhalalaa according to them, and everyone else is just a sheep follower who needs love. everyone relates to four descriptions --- except actual fours. the Riso Hudson four descriptions are more likely to resonate with a 6 or a 9, or a 2, than a four
            because fours don't identify as much with being one of the humans and they can see that OTHERS struggle to find their identity while the four knows who they are, or believes they do
            so most fours will test as 5, 3, 1, 8, etc - not as 4s
            because the premises are incorrect
            Naranjo and Almaas get it right. And Maitri more so, as well.
            but those later authors Riso Hudson and Fauvres need to be thrown right in the trash. everything is backwards and shallow
            thats why so many people mistype at four and INSIST on it. they don't know. they are wrong.
            if they are "seeking identity" or "don't know who they are" or theyre an enigma wrapped in a mystery, find another typing for them. it's not a four.

            ALSO, people who are weird for the sake of making a statement aren't fours. that's more likely to be a 2 or 3
            fours insist on being EXACTLY who they are. their body is a canvas to express their inner feelings. they may give too much emphasis to their feelings and subjective ideas, to the point that they ISOLATE themselves and feel disconnected from their very humanity or from others
            but they will not put on a goth outfit to fit with an outsider group. just not gonna happen
            every "goth" i know is a 2, 6 or 9, and the combo of the three makes this type of thing especially likely
            in some cases, 3s
            but threes change their look a lot
            it's like magic
            they can just become anything
            i hope that helps

            Comment


            • Animal
              Animal commented
              Editing a comment
              @La Dame Aux Roses
              Not all 2s are enigmatic.. right now, offhandedly, I can think of two 2s who are right out there with who they are, even more than me in a way, because "who they are" doesn't involve all these metaphorical symbols, long books and other stuff like it does with me. Though I'm not saying that 2s *can't* have that either. I know another 2 who is very mysterious and also has a lot of symbols. Maybe it has to do with tritype - like maybe 5 brings some enigma. It's unlikely that you have a 5 fix I think? So maybe you're more of the straight forward variety, even if you also have a passion for fantasy which I share with you.

            • La Dame Aux Roses
              La Dame Aux Roses commented
              Editing a comment
              I didn't interpret you as saying ALL 2s were enigmatic, for the record, just had that thought on reading it! It makes a lot of sense that it would have to do with the head fix, not sure why I jumped to the gut. Linking it to a 5 fix makes lots of sense.

            • La Dame Aux Roses
              La Dame Aux Roses commented
              Editing a comment
              (capitalization might have made my sentence look unintentionally aggressive)

            #8
            about 126 being followers - not so much.
            2s, in Naranjo, Ichazo, and any author worth their weight in sand, are called WILLFUL. this is the premise for the whole type
            the issue is they need to be LESS willful
            these are self-asserting types with a line to 8 who go after what they want
            and boss people around
            absolutely not followers
            a 4 or 5 is more likely to APPEAR to follow along just to avoid having to get into any bullshit with humans
            as for 1s, i mean, why would they follow anyone? the need to be right trumps all. they would rather die on the hill of righteousness than continue living among wrongthink
            so six is the only appropriate type for the turkeys in the sense that sixes will "go along" to avoid danger, and will skeptically look at the danger and threats
            but a 6 with a 126 tritype??? not really
            thats probably the LEAST likely six to participate in something that makes no sense
            and six is the most skeptical of groupthink. if they appear to follow along it's because they want to avoid the threat, or blend in so they aren't singled out by powerful entities as a threat
            but meanwhile their mind is evaluating
            so when you add 1 and 2 to that, theyre not likely to follow
            much more likely to lead
            or just boss people around by themself

            As madhatter says, "Lord Business" (for this tritype)
            David Grey's description for this tritype includes "The Tyrrany of Should." That's pretty accurate too.

            Comment


              #9
              3s struggle with being human - they need to become something more. what makes a 3 a 3 is the simple REFUSAL to simply be "a human" or just.... "be." they NEED to become, to surpass, to transcend.
              but that struggle - the refusal to accept being simply human, the need to be something more --- is the most human struggle of all. that's the irony.
              that is what separates humans from other animals. other animals just are what they are, but humans can't accept that.
              thus, 3 embodies the defining struggle of humanity.

              four is connected to their own "originality," but not their shared origin.
              that's the paradox.

              Comment


              • Full_fathom
                Full_fathom commented
                Editing a comment
                I like it... therein lays the entanglement of the attachment itself, just from the emotive spectrum. I tend to think anymore that all attachments do a form of push/pull. With 3, the entanglement is juxtaposed against the innate need to assert fwd into the vast attachment, however it has no concrete identity (or concrete lack there of), it cannot exist alone in a vacuum. Not that one is needed, per se, bringing other types into the fold, but with 3 the emotive identity is actively revolving within a feedback loop, to perform that yes/no to their payoff. Validation is the word that springs to mind, leading to the validity of existing.... existing well... existing exceptionally, as a personal achievement. Absent the wonderful feelings is a pull, the vengeful side of "I'll show you, or I'll get back at you.... I'm going to triumph in the end" And within that are all the mechanisms needed to fool one's Self. The irony however that 'personal achievement' or actuation (or god forbid failure) is a wonderful and fulfilling experience among any and all ppl, but that's sorta how the Types go.... misrepresenting things.
                Last edited by Full_fathom; 12-23-2020, 10:03 PM.

              #10
              as a four im disconnected but very connected
              i connect to people through the deeper heart
              it's the paradox

              i liked maitri's idea of "soul child" at your integration point, though i think she explained it badly. but the idea that underneath a stingy 5 theres an 8 beast but the 5 fell from the grace of being magnanimous like an 8
              underneath a 4 going to great pains to express themselves subjectively, theres an objective 1 doing everything right and perfectly, for "reasons"
              so a lot of fours are overachievers
              at least when they're young
              but then more and more you fall from the grace of perfection, goodness and sacrifice
              you get exiled from utopia
              but utopia is still part of the four.
              exile implies still having an attachment to the homeland
              which a 5 doesn't.
              so inside of a four there's a perfect utopia
              but what you see is brokenness
              inside a 5 there's a savage beast taking what it wants
              and making magnanimous strides for humanity
              a hero
              a Martin Luther King 8
              giving of his passion for the sake of justice
              and inside a 4 there's a beautiful, symmetrical, correct and rational reasonable 1, making everything good
              and inside a 9.....
              a 3 shining like the sun, expanding their energy, being loved for it, and being the envy of all
              there's a 3 realizing their potential, growing to everything they can be and more, surpassing their very humanity
              and looking great doing it

              i think thats why many 9s look for spiritual improvement
              why 4s obsess over details in their projects to create beauty
              to capture their truth "perfectly"

              i can actually be very rational and objective. thats the funny thing
              people think im loony bin until they know me well. then theyre like "wait holy shit, youre like, the sanest person i ever met"
              my mind is unique but it's very much "in order." everything has a place and a reason.

              Comment


              • La Dame Aux Roses
                La Dame Aux Roses commented
                Editing a comment
                I love the soul child theory, in my mind I think of it as the first wound. I feel like in my experience a lot of people have antipathy or are dismissive towards their integration type at the same, maybe in a similar way to how kids feel about things they've outgrown. And maybe something a bit difficult to look at straight on. I like your idea here.

              #11
              Type 8

              for me as a four fixated on desire, with an 8 fix, my appetite is insatiable. and once i can make a conquest or a goal out of it, i'm on fire. i feel alive. like all of my losses and traumas and worries just get crushed under the weight of my sheer obsessive energy and hunger. and all i can see, feel or think - is the goal. the acquisition. unfortunately, since i'm a heart core, that acquisition is usually a person.

              lust = objectification.

              and 8s being gut types are fixated on boundaries. so they push against others' boundaries to have their energy met. can you take it? can you take it? can you? push push push. they actually enjoy the push-back against them. it gives them something to conquer. it makes them feel alive. this doesn't mean they want fighting. a calm, intellectual challenge is also something that can focus and entice an 8.

              nothing turns me on more than someone who wants me desperately but for some reason, refuses me.

              and it's not about refusing sex. i mean they won't answer my question. won't open up. there's a wall around their heart that only my forceful fire and seduction can penetrate. god what a turn on.

              this is coming from a four core - so it's the stuff of the heart that turns me on. but there's still a heavily 8ish flavor to it. there's a need for me to push my weight against something, be it my intellectual weight, emotional weight, or the sheer force of my relentless determination.

              Daeva:
              yep. gut is boundaries, and 8 wants to break em

              Me:
              thats why to me, the hottest fucking thing on the planet is a TiSe 9.
              i dare you to break him open. nothing will. the only thing that will is absolute honesty.
              thats why he does best with 8-fixed heart cores.
              people whose emotions burn alive, but who still leave room for his gut-rage.
              an actual 8 core might come off too much like they're pushing him around or competing for space.
              but for me as a heart core with 8 fix , it's a matter of pushing forward my emotional energy until he breaks open, and then when he bursts in a volcanic rage, swallowing it whole and showing i can handle it.
              "feed me more."

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              and more
              feed me excess
              it's never enough.
              and 8's "holy truth" is about that animalistic honesty.
              the other side of lust is innocence.
              8s are not just big desire and big anger. they also have big emotions, big hearts, big tears, big needs.
              we have an 8 lead friend that goes naked in his bubble bath and cries his eyes out on camera, and posts it for facebook. he is 468, 8 lead. he cries about his exes, his childhood abuse, anything. he's a wide open book and a big muscular thing. it's like a dare. you wanna mock him for openness? he'll laugh in your face. only an idiot would cross him.
              8s can talk up their toughness. because thats big and exciting to talk about. it's an implicit challenge. "im a tough piece of shit. show me what you got."
              but they also can burst into tears in public.
              they're so sure of their strength. you wanna make fun of them for crying? lol. you're the wimp here, afraid of your heart.
              8 is a public display of big big big.
              how many times did (8 lead) trump whine and complain about the liberals mocking him. the enemies going after him. he mocks and humiliates anyone he wants. it's an implicit challenge. "come at me liberals. come at me rosie o'donnel." and come at him, she did. she is an 8 too.
              trump got rich. he wanted a bigger challenge than money.
              so he lost a lot of money and took on the liberals.
              what he really loves is making a big fucking show
              making a splash.
              he would have been bored out of his mind with a normal presidency. he wanted to be the scapegoat in a time when liberals hate conservatives. when the media is against him. when you're not allowed to speak wrongspeak. so he could speak wrongspeak the loudest.
              big big big
              and 5 is the opposite. 5s make themselves small.

              5s are not "mini 8s."
              5s need to integrate 8ness.
              the word "integrate" is a good choice of word.
              it's something missing from them.
              their defenses are built to NOT expand, as 8 does. to NOT desire more and more, as 8 does. to minimize their needs. to minimize their presence. to gain power from within the shadows of the mind. the only realm they can fully control.
              or so they think. until they can't control it and it moves toward low 7, scattering. and it moves toward low 8, hungering.
              then they start to get schizzy, divorcing from reality as they attempt to build up power within the mindscape instead of INTEGRATING 7 and 8 to make it concrete power in the world.
              but when they get healthier, they do integrate worldly power, worldly acquisition (through 8), worldly knowledge and wisdom of experience (through 7). they integrate this not only through wanting it and imagining it from the shadows, but by being confident enough in their mind that they can enter the world and take concrete steps toward having more.
              the high side of 8 is magnanimity. big hearted giving. "i have a lot, so i will give a lot...." ... [undertone: as long as you respect me.] The lord giveth and the lord taketh away. The 8 giveth and the 8 taketh away. He/she has the power to do so.

              in fact, magnanimity can even be a low-side quality of 8. "giving to get" a la "low 2." or "giving to increase power underhandedly," a la "low 5."
              [4:50 PM]
              an 8 will take you on, and you'll be fully dependent on them. until you piss them off and they discard you and throw you to the wolves, and then continue on their merry way.

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                #12
                While I'm not 100% on board with Naranjo's subtypes, the concept of "counter type" is a useful one that originally only got applied to 6. all types have dualistic, opposing forces within them that vie for control over one's motivation.

                let's take 8s for example:
                - lusty excess vs stoic resilience
                - antisocial tendencies vs justice
                - predatory vs protective (note: the most caring mothers in the animal kingdom are mostly carnivores. the most competitive and violent species also have the most interests in protecting their young)
                - "I just want to be left the fuck alone" vs "I'm bored. let's provoke someone! 😈"

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                  #13
                  too much attention and justification are given to the arrows, but when they do show up, there are strengths and weaknesses in both directions. 5 also gets spontaneity from 7, 1s get authentic reflection from 4 (they are a type that otherwise tends to compartmentalize their "inappropriate" emotions), 7s gain discipline and backbone from 1, 3s get a much needed break/relaxation from 9. the examples thereof for all nine types are quite obvious imo

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