Riso/Hudson's description of type 4

[Guest]

I read in a comment somewhere that Riso/Hudson's description of type 4 is actually a description of type 9. I can't remember where I saw it, hence the new post.

I was wondering... if that description is actually describing type 9, then what does the type 9 description describe? As someone who can fully see herself in one description but not the other, I find it hard to see how both descriptions describe the same type.

Thanks.

[Daeva]

Don Richard Riso is likely to have been a 9 core himself. He typed himself at 4, however, and proceeded to (co-)write the popular R&H books and (co-)found the Enneagram Institution. You can look into his person and his life, and decide for yourself if it makes sense that he identified as a 4. If you think it does, then I suppose his writings on 4 are legit. Personally, and I am far from alone in this, I think they are not.

The R&H 4 descriptions describe a character that struggles with what are ultimately attachment (3, 6, 9) issues; including seeking an identity from outside the self.

Taken from the EI website: "They feel that they lack a clear and stable identity, particularly a social persona that they feel comfortable with."
Issues around clarity and stability are elements of the 6-9 line. Issues of comfort belong to type 9 and are antithetical to type 4.

Again: "."
See the issue? Wanting ease (9) and confidence (6). Also, it is very easy to mistake "Nobody understands me" with "Nobody sees me."

"In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others."
This is type 3, including the lines to 3 from 6 and 9.

Yes, there are elements to the descriptions that are 4-ish, but as a whole, the descriptions are lacking. From personal experience, it has been largely attachment types who see themselves reflected in the R&H type 4 descriptions, including yours truly. It stems from Riso's self-typing. Again, you can check it out for yourself and see whether it adds up or not.

[Animal]

The RH 9 description is not describing a human. It's describing depression. The concepts are about someone with no personality, no opinions, no shape, no zest for life, no focused dreams etc. It's not describing a gut type, an ANGER core, or a person with any creativity. Basically it's a dead doormat.

There are people who aren't depressed and relate to the nine description, but this would only be possible with certain configurations, like sync flow, 2 fix and other factors. If you're a 9 with a 4 fix, for example, you'd relate to 'seeking identity,' but not to the 9 description, because there's no reactivity in that description.

Arya is a 9 who says she relates to the description - but she also typed at six for many many years before typing at 9, so I'd like to hear about her process, since I can't speak for what she relates to. But no one with a four FIX would ever relate to the happy-fightless-doormat. And Arya has quite a bit of fight and rawr herself. RALA is a 9 who would never relate to that description in a million years, as she is 964.

I'd recommend looking into 9 or 6w5 lead, with a 4 fix. Your facebook page and photography pages are full of horror themes (fear, head). I've seen these themes come up in 6-fixed 9s, as well as 6 leads. 9s have a direct line to 6, so they can enjoy the horror stuff, especially if they have both 6w5 and 4w5 going into 5.

Also, you have a "push against" attitude, challenging descriptions and ideas rather than over-describing your identity, your feelings and your unique inner world as a four lead would. Fours are highly subjective, to a fault, and would not concern themselves so much with joining a million groups and asking questions about descriptions. If they join groups, they fill it up with their own inner story and personal journey, and deeply explore the inner landscape, discussing how their type plays into it.

What you do strikes me as attachment lead. Your art has some 4w5ish aesthetics, but it seems to me like your heart fix rather than your lead, considering your personality reveals a lot of defiance, distant 'coldness' in approach, and seeking to explore other people's takes on an outside system while offering very minimal information about your inner self.

A four lead is unlikely to enter a forum by simply saying "I relate completely to a description someone else wrote," without first differentiating their own identity. The unique individual expression is a compulsion, so it is never enough to "relate" to a preconceived description without delving deep into why and what makes you who you are.

Getting back to 9 - Ichazo refers to 9 as the "over-nonconformist" - because they are often defiant, pushing against something. Both 6 and 9 can have defiant approaches. Four is not pushing against something outside themselves; instead they are focused on expressing what's inside, which is a whole 'separate' existence. It can look defiant because what they're expressing is different than the norm, but there won't be this sense that they offer minimal information about themselves while pushing against the info that others offered.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Animal

[SpiritoftheGael]

Animal also I will add that i was heavily inspired by the R and H 9 in my own nine description. They have this listed as the basic fear of nine: "Basic Fear: Of loss and separation". This very heavily resonated and so I took the concept and fleshed it out more.

[SpiritoftheGael]

[devo]

The Riso/Hudson's description of type 4 fits me to a T!

[Animal]

And yet youre one of the most obvious 9s on the planet. Well, to be fair, we also thought at one point you could be a 2. I'm sure So/Sx played into that because it made you feel slightly less embodied than say, an Sp 9. But you are really really really 9ish. :P

[devo]

to be fair, I do also relate to the 9 description, but then again, I'm quite a caricature of this

[Animal]

You also have no reactivity at all in your tritype. You do have the four wing on 5, but that's the only trace of reactivity.

[devo]

[devo]

[SpiritoftheGael]

This is pure 9w8. Compartmentalization to the extreme to keep on going. This is what the R and H 9 is trying to talk about, but they don't quite hit the mark, and they kinda have 9w1 mixed in, but not in a very representative way.
"Set the earth on fire. Cause I don't want enough. I want it all."

^9w8 so much

So you keep on going till you're a hollow ghost.


"Hollow"