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**Daeva** · 01-07-2020, 10:05 AM

In the on-line Socionics communities I have encountered many incredibly rude posters who insist on "Beta NF" for myself, most thinking it to be IEI, some convinced of EIE. What these posters have in common is a lack of argument, meaning that I haven't heard an actual case yet in all this time. The "best" I have heard was that I am too good at "imagination" to have low dimensional Intuition. Whatever that means. I'm still curious to know what it is that they see, preferably without insulting my character.

Concerning the Enneagram, most concur with my self-typing. David Fauvre typed me at Sexual 2 because it is supposedly "4-like," when in reality I am neither "4-like" or "like 2." It was good to parse out the 2 within myself however, as my mother is a type 2 core and it is wise to address other's influence on our personhood. But Sexual 2 is a whole different beast.

There is the argument for type 9 coming from the camp of David Gray, Emeka Okorafor, and John Luckovich. Though they type many, many people at type 9.
David had typed me exactly the way he types himself: Sp/Sx 9w1 974. I disagree with his self-typing, first of all, and secondly I disagree with the idea that him and I have such a similar personality type. He fancies himself, and by extension me, as a sort of playful satyr. I take myself way too seriously for this to be true.
The argument ultimately rests on behaviors and thought patterns stemming from depression, and examining the argument with actual type 9's in my life supports this idea - as the issues that I had brought up in favor of type 9 were not recognizable with the people of this type, but they WERE with those who sadly also had suffered through depression, no matter their Enneagram type. These behaviors, thought patterns, and the "9" self-image have slowly eroded away, just alongside the depression. What a happenstance!
In the case of Emeka, he argued that I played out "an elaborate type 9 self-denying disappearing act" and that I was "fracturing" my persona because I changed my self-typing. This "argument" came to be after he insisted I was trolling him by changing my self-typing. Yet I was serious.
Also, though this is a smaller point, he once told me that he believes around 70% of people might be a type 9. This didn't exactly help his case either.
I confronted them on my typing but found no satisfying answers.

**BalalaikaBoy** · 01-11-2020, 01:56 AM

for purposes of this topic, I'm focusing on arguments that relate to one's understanding/lack thereof of type 8, not on accurate/inaccurate perceptions of me. the latter is not particularly useful, and even if it were, it's typically futile to try to prove that someone is wrong about you.

Good reasons to be skeptical of my self-typing
- I don't VI like an 8 at all. sure, my voice does (very deep, chesty, commanding), but physically I'm slender, extremely neotonous (I'm 28 and still get mistaken for a bloody high schooler) and my eyes have this alluring smoothness to them that doesn't look like an 8. I almost look like an Sx/Sp 9w1 with a 1 fix.
- while I'm particularly fearful, I'm not particularly courageous either. if I am afraid of something, I'll typically avoid it. what does get me to face my fears is the frustration of the freedom of movement that it can result in
- I'm not particularly in touch with my body in terms of physical coordination
- I don't usually like "challenges". I make myself pursue them to get stronger, but at the end of the day, I'm much more of a homebody and would rather read, cuddle and watch anime all day.
- 8s aren't typically known for being particularly fantasy oriented, at least not the degree that I am
- I'm really only competitive when it comes to "my thing". at work, I play almost a stereotypically feminine role, because I'd rather work somewhere where we just cooperate and get through the day so we can all go back to what our real goals are. at the end of the day...it's just a job, and I don't give enough of a shit to be competitive.

bad reasons to be skeptical of my self-typing
- most notably, people tend to forget that 8s are also humans, with childhoods, physical limitations and what not. tbh, I feel like people who don't type as 8 are more responsible for the lionizing of type 8 than people who do. literally no one pops out of the womb with a personality like Darth Bane, Genghis Khan, Donald Trump or Charlton Heston (even Darth Bane was bullied for several years in his childhood). 8s who are 5, 11 or 16 years old are just as 8 as the kind of archetypal 50 year old business tycoons and military commanders we normally think of. your type is something you are born with, not an elite military rank, corporate title or black belt you get awarded from doing something bad ass (what's next? people need a Master's Degree to type as 5?)
- people assume that everyone who explains things thoroughly has to be a head or competency type. newflash: without body language or tonality, more things need to be explicitly stated online than IRL
- apparently 8s can't like anime. wtf....
- people will do this shit where they criticize you, then act like any time you explain how they're wrong that's "defensive". like "if you were REALLY powerful, you wouldn't feel compelled to respond to anything aggressive" this is 1) bullshit, and 2) how a NINE views power, not an 8. sure, 8 is not a type to make mountains out of mole hills, but they are a type who values basic assertiveness.
- "you care about morality so you have to be 1/1 fixed"....wtf. that's like saying "you're good at parenting, you must have 2w1 in your tritype" or "you're good at sucking dick, you must be Sx dom".
- "but, I've never seen you be sadistic". of course you haven't, because my IQ is above 75, so I realize I would get doxxed if I constantly talked about sadistic episodes from my past.
- some variation of a double bind where they ask you to "prove your 8-ness". if you don't do it, they'll assume you're passive and, thus, not an 8. if you do, they'll assume you're not an 8 because you're a try hard. whatever type I've typed as, I've always just ignored people who want me to "prove" a given type, because that is insanely dumb (though I'm fairly patient at explaining things to people who don't get it or dealing with objective criticism).
- you don't have to be thrill seeking to be an 8. thrill seeking is more 7 and, to a lesser extent, cp6 than it is 8. 8w9 is often kind of a boring type with relatively low energy.

there will always be people who disagree with me on my type, and that's totally cool, but even before I typed as 8, some of the rationalizations people would give for why someone wasn't an 8 would give me a headache.

edit: just for fun, if I were to give animal representations to each of the 8w9 stackings

8w9 Sp/So: bear
8w9 Sp/Sx: crocodile
8w9 So/Sx: elephant (probably the most counter-8 stacking. makes sense if it's a more pro-social species)
8w9 So/Sp: gorilla
8w9 Sx/Sp: anaconda
8w9 Sx/So: male lion

**BalalaikaBoy** · 01-11-2020, 02:09 AM

Daeva

Also, though this is a smaller point, he once told me that he believes around 70% of people might be a type 9. This didn't exactly help his case either.

these kinds of the people are like the reverse of the Enneagram newbs who think they're 4s because they're depressed, 5s because they like to read, 2s because they volunteer or 8s because they get in arguments with their parents. instead of over-typing the "cool types", they deify them with this unattainable rare bird status while 90% of the rest of us are mere 3/6/9s.

**PleasureToBurn** · 01-11-2020, 10:03 AM

Everyone had at least kind of decent arguments, but I can't see myself being core 9, core 6, or core 7, probably not core 8 either. Here are the arguments people have made though:

Type 2: Pride, seductive, line to 8 and 4.

Type 4: Deep emotions, not afraid of confronting inner darkness and ugliness, focused on creating good quality work (music, writing, art).

Type 6: Rough around the edges, too dark to be a 3, reactive, planning, style.

Type 7: Like to joke around, troll, up for anything, wild, hedonistic, making sure everyone is feeling good.

Type 8. Boldness, outspoken, harsh without realizing it, aggressive, too reactive/dark to be a 3.

Type 9: Accommodating, mediating, not polarizing, friendly, fog of 9.

Currently typing as 3w4.

**Mahat** · 01-11-2020, 01:04 PM

**Animal** · 01-11-2020, 03:37 PM

When I first got to perc, in 2012, I was typing as 5w4. I didn't know anything about tritype or instincts. The typing was actually more reasonable than it sounds, since I knew I had a connection to 8, 5, and 4. I also saw some shades of 1 and 3, so I did consider 4 very strongly. But both 2 and 4 were presented with a very 9ish bent in the RH books, and I couldn't connect to it. Basically I was looking to the lines to explain the energies that I connected to. My "144 question" test scores were 5 and 8 super high scores, and 4 closely behind. The reasons I typed at 5 were not just about the lines and mechanics - also deeper stuff which I'm very hesitant to discuss in public, but I've shared hints. I'll write a thread on it sometimes when I'm feeling up to it and can frame it in human language which others can read. Back then, I spent most of my time communicating my feelings in art which nobody ever saw but me. But suffice it to say, I had a very strong 5 case and the four description was drenched in 9 themes that I couldn't relate to.

I came to Perc having typed at 5w4 for 12 years, and having thought a lot about my lines to 8 and 7. But I had never been on a forum before (honestly I didn't even know what a "forum" was until then). I had been on facebook for a few years, but that was different, and at the time I used it mostly for self promo.

When I got to perc I used my usual public name. I joined because I wanted to understand my characters better, but I soon realized that there was a lot more to enneagram than I realized- tritype, etc. This might explain some of the minor problems that came up in my head with 5 leading. So I changed to an anonymous name. At first I used totally distant stuff, then "Maybe," my cat's name. I was very hesitant to use anything connected to my identity expression or my inner world, because it was a public forum and my novels and albums aren't done yet. This is a similar reason why I get viscerally turned off by video games - I don't like the idea that my sacred and deeply meaningful names would be used for animated characters that someone else constructed and then plopped into someone else's world. It feels like they would be stealing my inner self, which I need to reserve for MY personal world so it retains its purity. So you see, typing at five was not completely idiotic, but it's four because my identity expression has to retain its purity (line to 1) and can't be tainted by worlds created by others. It needs to be mine. (avarice.) . And as open and heartfelt and "splat" as I am, there are some things I can't just toss around freely lest the world should devour it. The names I hold sacred are one. My stage names and alter egos are fine to be in public since they're part of MY project, MY Erosia - not just part of a horde owned by some forum owner in a distant cubicle.

Considering the prominence of this huge inner world that was separate and personal by nature - I saw strong 8 in me but only considered 4 and 5 for core, back in 2001. But fast forward to 2012 and now I'm on perc. And the whole forum, at first, decided I was an 8, and an Sx lead. That said, the actual 5s on the 5 forum did relate to me and thought I had strong 5, too. One ("madhatter") made the case early on for 4w3 fix, and pushed it. She sensed I might be 4 lead but with that particular tritype.

I typed at 8 fix right away, but didn't think I was worldly enough for 8 lead. I mean I've lived a lot and my lust has been made manifest, and when I told parts of my life story, people on the forum sometimes thought it was made up, for how exciting it was, like a movie. They couldn't believe someone actually lived that much! And it involved drugs, sex, even crime, though I was careful about how much detail I gave away

on some matters. There was way more than I could even write down, for safety reasons alone. So all these people that live their entire lives behind a screen and think a fight is something you do with a light saber; they pushed 8. Ok, understandable. But I didn't understand their world any better than they understood mine. I just assumed they had lives, so I took their opinion to have actual meaning at first.

So, I was lucky to meet Quindary and "Grumpy cat/madhatter" right when I got there. Quindary is the only reason I stayed there. The only reason I was there is that I'd lost everything to illness AGAIN - my music crashed and I had to leave the city - and then for a year I buried myself in nothing but writing every second, and then my hard drive crashed and my books were lost!!!! I had registered for the forum just to ask some questions about characters who I thought were 2s and 7s, and then a few days later the books were gone, but Quindary had my interest. So there I stayed, trying to impress him while I waited for the books to come back. They were the only thing I had left - and it took almost two months for a technician to find some trace of them.

Needless to say during this time I was not in a good place. At all.

So here I was in this foreign environment trying to make sense of how people perceived me and the enneagram. Eight? Ok. But not quite right. Soon enough someone that Quindary & I got close to, suggested 3 to me. He was typing at three and he hit right on my image issues, and it made me cry on camera. Back then I was still a pretty closed off person, I was splat and wild but didn't let people inside. Crying on camera in front of someone was not... me.

So he had hit a major trigger. I typed at sp/sx 3w4, even as the whole forum continued insisting on Sx. I started processing my image issues which was an intense ride, but the threes on the forum (who may actually have been correctly typed, since the typing was so unpopular)... they told me that my image issues sounded real and they could relate to what I'm saying, but as core threes they wouldn't be caught dead confessing something so personal. Maybe I should try type 4.

And alas the drama began. The people "gatekeeping" the four forum at the time were 2s, 7s and 9s, who told me I was way too aggressive for 4, too sure of myself, had too much confidence in my own projects. "I never believe in my talent. I envy your PRIDE in your work." Etc. They typed me as 7, sometimes with a 2 fix. 7 because I'm so creative, interesting and sure of myself, and conceited. (I agree with the descriptors lol, but I didn't relate to 7.) 2 fix because I'm so proud fo my work.

Others around the forum, who weren't typing at 4 themselves and getting up my butt about it, were typing me as 8 still. Or sometimes 3 or 5. I had a feeling there was something iffy going on with the four forum.. like a badge of honor that non-fours were scrambling for. But, to be fair to them, they were acting out the stuff written in RH -- searching for identity, trying on identities, jealous of anyone who has confidence, crybabies, etc. So... maybe they were right and my feeling deep down was just wrong. When they posted RH 4 quotes that they related to, well.. they were right. That was them. And it wasn't me.

I typed at 8 - Sx 8, specifically. Back to Sx/Sp, because Sp 8 is very off. Sx 8 is the 'emotional 8.'

Regarding instincts, everyone insisted I was the most Sx thing ever to walk the earth - including enemies, friends, etc. Nobody ever allowed me to type away from Sx. Normally back then, people were scrambling for an Sx typing, but I was thinking "maybe I'm Sp/Sx" while people were insisting on Sx. The argument, for them, was between Sx/Sp and Sx/So. Anyway, this was a bit more reasonable since I do have a loud Sx 8 fix, and I understand why I seem like Sx lead.

But 8 lead did not go over well, though 8 fix was unanimous (aside from occasional arguments that I might have a 1w9 fix). This horde then chased me around telling me I was a 7. I read about 15 books cover to cover, sometimes more than once, and Te-bombed them (as they used to call it) with information and better arguments. I told them I'm not stuck on my own 8 typing but their portrayal of what 8 is, is ridiculous. I was right.

In the meantime I started a few 8 vs. 4 threads. I had typed now at 847 - moved from 5 to 7 only because the horde was so insistent on 7 and I finally looked into it and found some truth in it (especially with how I relate to my father) - so I went with it as my last fix - for the time being. I had better arguments but, irrelevant right now. In these threads, one person after another who was typing as 4, either flattered me by telling me how strong and badass I am and that no four would ever be so resilient, or subtly insulted me by telling me how conceited and sure of myself I am, so I can't possibly be a four.

So then finally I had the 'revelation' that made me fall to my knees.... how this happened is a long personal story that would take a long time; better for another thread. I realized I was a four, and I could not go back. It hit me in my gut and I cried on my knees for up to two weeks. Several times the kind of crying that makes you convulse from the gut. I was destroyed and it was cathartic. My whole life made sense.

Now I wrote one post about it, retired from the forum for the time being, and took about six months to process it on my own or with a small group of friends from perc, which now included both Quindary and Arya (I think? or we might have met right when I came back).

When I came back to perc the fighting continued. The angry four-forum horde was absurd. I actually had fun battling them and trying to show the forum what I believe four is. I didn't go after anyone else's typing, just their understanding of the type. I was careful to say "I'm not here to type anyone unless you make a thread and ask for my opinion. I'm just here to clear up what I think the real themes of four are." For a while I made a small mission out of it , if only because it helped me process my own typing. But the cases for 7 never stopped. People who hated me tried to 'insult me' by typing me as six. (I was totally willing to consider 6 fix, but I don't respond well to people who see six as an insult and 'fling it at me' out of spite .) There was a 1 case which actually was very good and helped me understand my line to 1. I appreciated that, but I know I'm not a 1 core or fix. One guy from Typewatch insisted I was a 9.

. But I will say, the rest of perc was not buying that. But damn, the way people turned on me when I typed at four, the way I made enemies.... amazing

although I won't pretend that some of the insults didn't hurt, and definitely didn't help me to heal.

In this time I met Roshan . I asked for her opinion whether I was a 4 or a 3, because I felt through all this bullshit that the only thing worth considering aside from four, was three. She saw the 4, and for the same reasons I did! And her explanations of four actually made sense and fit with my conception of the type. Hallelujah!

Once I had it out with the people I needed to and basically convinced the prominent (at that time) members of the forum not only that I was a four but that there might be something to my case about what it actually means, I left. There was nothing in it for me. I didn't retire but just posted less, basically hung around just to target Daeva and make him mine.

During that year or two off, I posted only on the "Sx confessions" thread, which was more of a cathartic poetic release to process stuff outside the forum. I was practicing writing and did some of it there instead of my diary, to see what kind of reactions it would get.

Since then I went to facebook. Most people agreed with four core except that when I would make enemies with an "authority" then either they, or their protectors, would decide that I'm a 6 "challenging authority." To be specific, Emeka, David Grey and David Fauvre were SO SURE I was a 'real four' and Emeka & Fauvre were enthused about how fourish I am and how I need to show the world what a four looks like. But then the minute I challenged David Grey's arguments themselves - Emeka told everyone behind my back that I was a six. The minute I challenged Fauvre's arguments, he said I must be a six, turning on authority. Slightly more interesting was when Pork, a member of EIDB and old timer, was offended by my argument on his typing thread, and told the whole world including me to my face (thanks, I appreciate that at least) that I was a 268. I'm almost flattered. That's a badass tritype to say the least! David Grey, to his credit, continued insisting I was a four even after we 'split.' At least someone types people based on something other than "they challenged my argument." Or in Emeka's case, "They challenged my authority's argument."

(Apparently having my own separate opinion and disagreeing with another human's opinion, and presenting my case to them, is outside the range of four. Somehow in their heads, this became "me challenging authority." Meanwhile from my perspective I spoke to these people the same way I'd speak to any of my friends or any rando on a forum whose opinion and outlook I was interested in hearing, and then at one point, I disagreed. These people's expertise and years of study gave me more substance with which to engage, so perhaps there was more fire in the conversation. I do respect the very act of putting work into something, so when I spend more time arguing with them it's also a sign of respect, that these people actually tried and arguing with them is worth my time. But I don't see them as authorities nor do I think their status makes them correct. And anyone who actually knows me, should realize this. I also have a tendency to play dumb so that I can learn more, and grasp their opinion from every angle while withholding the extent of my knowledge - until my knowledge becomes useful in challenging theirs to get a better understanding of their view. I don't want my preconceived notions to get in the way of grasping how they see things, which I am examining for my own benefit. This, my friends, is avarice.)

But this never happened once I left Perc, until I had 'run-ins' with someone that could not deal with conflict and argue something out with intellectual integrity. Then all of a sudden I'm a six, or in one case, a two. Until that moment I'm the clearest four they ever saw, and all the four wannabes are copying my collages and my statements, but doing a very bad job of making it sound similar.

Anyway for the most part, with Pork's exception, everyone agreed on 4 and 8 in my tritype after Perc, even if they got mad at me and decided it followed 6 lead. Some people behind my back, still think my tritype is 486 and my instincts are Sx/So. Well .. I typed that way for at least a year and a half so, whatever. But it was Daeva and Roshan who saw the five in the end, and then Roshan caught the Sp/Sx, which feels SO MUCH MORE RIGHT deep in my bones. I was relieved to be away from Sx leading. My typing now really hits where it hurts and shines where I shine. When I first came to Perc it seemed the obvious tritype (though I occasionally fought for 3 fix). Sp/Sx was something I alone saw until later, but I think that people who know me in real life, if they understood instincts, would also see it. It was just confusing because I'm too intense for the world and also obscenely desirous, obsessive and possessive, and this confused everyone (including me) into leaning Sx.

Regarding 5, I will say that Daeva has subtly pushed it for years and Quindary always saw 5 fix for me. Several people on perc, not the people who were posting with the horde but outsiders who posted occasionally - really pushed 5 for me including 5 lead. I remember so many times someone would say to me "you might be a real 458!" and I would laugh. It was also pretty much assumed to be my tritype when I got to perc, until interpersonal grudges got involved. The overtyping and distortions around the meaning of the tritype seemed obvious at first but ultimately, threw me off - it was just so much noise that I made the very reasonable conclusion that maybe they had a point and I could be wrong, and explored other types with an open mind, even though in my heart of hearts, I had always felt strong 5 in me. I never saw this tritype as some kind of magical feat and I'm honestly kind of embarrassed by the bullshit around it, but, it is me, and that's my curse.

**BalalaikaBoy** · 01-12-2020, 01:07 AM

the one thing I don't get is that the people who have told me that I'm "trying to act like an 8" whenever I get into an argument with people...usually type me at 9 or 1. the three obvious holes this in this are
1) 9s and 1s are the two types least likely to show off their anger so egotistically. they have an uncomfortable relationship with anger and try to keep it at bay. shouldn't they be typing me as cp6 if this is what they think? maybe 5 or 7 with a strong 6 wing? a more willful 4 or dramatic 2? 1s and 9s are right at the bottom of the list of suggestions that make sense given such a claim
2) I've seen this pattern a thousand times before even typing at 8, where something magically gets typed as "wanting to look tough and 8-ish", when that behavior existed for years when the person was typed as, say, a 4 with a 1 fix. if the person is trying to look 8, it should be behavior that shows up after they decide they're an 8
3) why do people have this weird belief that 8s, the most aggressive of all 9 types, somehow don't get into arguments? in what world does that make sense? what? are they all neanderthals who just bash people over the head when they disagree? not sure how any of them make it out of jail if that's the case

**[redacted]** · 01-12-2020, 06:53 AM

"If you don't relate to a type, it's because you are that type" (or something along those lines)
I mean, I get the Enneagram motivations are more about unconscious drives, so it can be worthwhile to look into a type even if it doesn't immediately resonate with you.... but I hope I don't have to explain why this sort of argument is problematic.

There are other stupid arguments that I've encountered, but harder to explain without going into more detail than I feel like right now.

**Vive** · 01-12-2020, 03:12 PM

I haven't really heard any poor arguments. Most of it I agreed with or was food for though, or it was good in retrospect.

Most people thought 6w5. My lack of faith in things turning out all right since an early age, constant self-questioning, never feeling quite prepared enough along for anything with my seriousness.

Some though of 9 as core, but many saw 9 as a very clear fix. As my identity is quite mold-able, I'm quite go with the flow and had serious trouble expressing my needs if these needs might result in bothering the someone important to me. My fear of self-assertion.

**RALA** · 01-14-2020, 06:24 PM

I don't have much time to go into details now (I' typing from work, and i still have to write a post on Hannah's thread where Erica tagged me), but just posting this here so i see it and remember to come back. I've been typing at 9 from some time now and I have been typed at 8 by some or at 6 claiming I am too aggressive abd reactive for 9, and this is one of the stereotypes about 9 that will forever irk me, that 9s are all just tamed little balls of heaven uncomfortable with their anger. Uhm, anger IS and always was the one emotion I have always been the most comfortable with. Feeling hurt? I don't get sad, I get angry first AND express it. Anger has been one of my biggest downfalls BUT it has also been a bleszing because I've always known how to channel it help me furing the toughest time abd make it out alive and on top.

**BalalaikaBoy** · 01-18-2020, 03:19 AM

RALA
Animal
while refuting anyone's type in this thread would defeat the original purpose, I feel compelled to point out that a lot of confusion around 9 could be cleared up if people remember that, while 9 is also in the center of the gut triad, they are also the type most uncomfortable with this fundamental presence of anger. many 9s learn to be assertive about their anger, and stories about the sudden explosion of anger after the long fuse finally blows are a staple of 9 literature, but, in the midst of a conflict, you usually get the sense that that's not where they want to be.

in a sense, 9 is kind of a reverse 4 (many say this about 8s and 4s, but in another sense it's true of 9/4). 4's holy idea is equanimity. it's what they're out of touch with, what all their psychological and spiritual work is geared toward in the literature. on the other hand, 9s are almost "over-equanimity". they're the masters of controlling attention and energy in order to create a sense of inner calm, "it's all good", something which tends to make them very attractive to more turbulent types like 4s, 6s and, to a lesser extent, 7s and 2s.

one common misconception people have about 9s though is that this means they will always be agreeable and compliant. in truth, the aforementioned narcotization doesn't have to involve people, and many Sp 9w8s in particular turn more to physical comfort and peace and quiet, both of which they tend to be quite assertive in defending (thinking about it more, "The Bear" really fits Sp 9w8 as well as it does 8w9. 8w9 is more gorilla or crocodile).

**PleasureToBurn** · 01-25-2020, 12:04 AM

I'd have to really go back and find the arguments, they might have been my own maybe, but when I first typed as 4, then 3, I had heart first, then head then gut. Then BalalaikaBoy kai Boy and my two recent exes convinced me that I was 8w7 fix second. I think his reasons were too reactive and shit to be gut last, and both exes said that it was that plus body language being very gut center 8 stuff. Not really sure what that means though, but I could see it. People seem to find me intimidating sometimes. That's probably a separate conversation though. I never really understood it, because I'm 5'4 with a noticeable physical disability. Maybe Animal can relate.

**a2jc4life** · 03-07-2020, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by BalalaikaBoy View Post

bad reasons to be skeptical of my self-typing
- most notably, people tend to forget that 8s are also humans, with childhoods, physical limitations and what not. tbh, I feel like people who don't type as 8 are more responsible for the lionizing of type 8 than people who do. literally no one pops out of the womb with a personality like Darth Bane, Genghis Khan, Donald Trump or Charlton Heston (even Darth Bane was bullied for several years in his childhood). 8s who are 5, 11 or 16 years old are just as 8 as the kind of archetypal 50 year old business tycoons and military commanders we normally think of. your type is something you are born with, not an elite military rank, corporate title or black belt you get awarded from doing something bad ass (what's next? people need a Master's Degree to type as 5?)
- people assume that everyone who explains things thoroughly has to be a head or competency type. newflash: without body language or tonality, more things need to be explicitly stated online than IRL
- apparently 8s can't like anime. wtf....
- people will do this shit where they criticize you, then act like any time you explain how they're wrong that's "defensive". like "if you were REALLY powerful, you wouldn't feel compelled to respond to anything aggressive" this is 1) bullshit, and 2) how a NINE views power, not an 8. sure, 8 is not a type to make mountains out of mole hills, but they are a type who values basic assertiveness.
- "you care about morality so you have to be 1/1 fixed"....wtf. that's like saying "you're good at parenting, you must have 2w1 in your tritype" or "you're good at sucking dick, you must be Sx dom".
- "but, I've never seen you be sadistic". of course you haven't, because my IQ is above 75, so I realize I would get doxxed if I constantly talked about sadistic episodes from my past.
- some variation of a double bind where they ask you to "prove your 8-ness". if you don't do it, they'll assume you're passive and, thus, not an 8. if you do, they'll assume you're not an 8 because you're a try hard. whatever type I've typed as, I've always just ignored people who want me to "prove" a given type, because that is insanely dumb (though I'm fairly patient at explaining things to people who don't get it or dealing with objective criticism).

I just need to take you with me everywhere or something. You have a real knack for describing exactly what's in my head. ALL OF THIS.

**Qassim** · 11-06-2021, 04:34 AM

I am, aside from Hitler, probably the most mistyped person on earth. I can tell you a lot about dumb fucking typological arguments.
If I could summarise it all in once sentence: People don't really understand typology systems.

They often master the basic fundamentals of the types--the traits, the idiosyncrasies, the "motivations", a few lines. They discuss their ideas with others, chat online, have theoretical insights.

But my experience is that very, very few really take the time to master the ins and outs of the types; understand the inner experiences of the types; understand the depth psychology; see how the wings and connecting points may influence someone's core; realize how much culture, upbringing, and life experiences can alter us; meditate on the spiritual principles; observe the myriad patterns in others; and utterly deconstruct themselves with the enneagram to find the real essence of the thing. I find that it's nearly the same thing with MBTI and JCF.

Instead, there's a reductionistic approach that divides the types into their component parts, and most people know how to analyse the parts they think they see...but they fail to realize that types are more than the sum of their parts. Thus, they almost inevitably look at the wrong things.

Consequently, I have dealt with all of the following, and more:

- I "don't seem" like my type. Based on a 10 minute video with me addressing issues not at all related to enneagram, or written words about untypeable issues. Based on stereotypes of what someone read in books even though they've never met my type irl. For example. One guy I exchanged about 3 sentences with tells me I could never be an 8, because I came across as reasonable and civil. He thought I was a 9. Jokes on him because he was a 1, he was being absolutely appallingly RUDE to me, and his sole conception of the types as "trait clusters" was so utterly WRONG and insipid he should have been laughed out of every enneagram community on earth.

- Because you're a Type X, and you "totally relate" to me, so therefore I'm one of your typological pack. Yeah, pretty much everyone on the internet "totally relates" to me and thinks we're long lost soul twins. Of every type. I shit you not, I get this so often. By no means does this mean that I'm "one of you". Yet no one relates to me irl, and they even consider me weird and incomprehensible.

- "Well sometimes Type X does Y, too" arguments. If, for instance, I describe myself as a loner who doesn't focus on people much except to hate them, I think it's disingenuous to suggest I am actually an ExFP "because Fi hates people sometimes too". You can't win arguments when they turn into this, because every type does everything sometimes. The fact is, that our varying types all have a baseline self-image. MBTI types in particular have an associated cognitive talent. For ExFPs, that happens to be focusing on other humans and seeing something important in them...when I say that this is the antithesis of me and my capabilities, you had better not rationlize that away. Yes, EFPs can be bitter grumps who hate people sometimes. It's not the same as actually existing this way at baseline.

- Because I "seem jittery" so I must really be a 6. This, of course, is a complete insult to the depth and angst of the head centre's anxiety, and shows disrespect for the typee as well. Maybe I was all hopped up on caffeine or cocaine. Maybe your interpretation of my energetic bubbly manner is of me being "jittery" when I'm in fact quite at ease. This one feels really ugly to me, like telling women their medical issues are all in their head and they're "hysterical".

- Because my words contradict themselves, this means I'm actually a 6. Because statistical studies show that only 6s can contradict themselves (hint: no they don't). Everyone has multiple sides to themselves, which inevitably DO contradict. The fact is, looking at superficial stuff like writing style and random personal details is not how you type others.

- Because statistically speaking I'm most likely to be a 6 or 9. Ok statistics matter, but when it's to the point you're letting unresearched statistical likelihoods substitute actual inquiry...that's intellectually dishonest.

- Because you see elements of 7 and 9 in me, I must therefore be a 9-fixed 6. With a 7-wing. There are better solutions here. Much better solutions. THINK.

- Because of XYZ circumstantial characteristics. Eg, I happen to be good at organizing people and information on a large scale, can operate with military precision, am dour and untalkative, and am typically aware of what time it is. This means I must be an INTJ. Like no Pe-dom can possibly do this too, they're all scattered and never have their shit together.

- Because you can't admit when you're wrong. I mean I have spoken to old acquaintances and enemies from PerC years after the fact...still couldn't admit even in private that they were wrong about my type and were hammering away at ossified nothingness to demonstrate that they had been right all along. Sad.

- Because I'm too wistful, too serious, too whatever superficial trait AND IT'S A TOTAL DEALBREAKER. For example, I was told that I had my shit together too much to be a 6, and that I was too sad and wistful to be an 8. Like these qualities are the domain of one type.

- Mistaking psychiatric conditions for types. Going along with the above point, but I was literally told, in the middle of a depressive episode, that I HAD to be a 4 because of all the self pity and inability to think positive. Gross misunderstanding of 4, as well as completely naive to the realities of mental health issues.

- Arbitrarily assigning a type without finding out the person's process. For example, someone was insisting I was a 6 because "I over-explained", I was "worried" about issues and I "kept apologizing" for "unideal circumstances". This person also picked up on the language that I used to preface my introduction, insisting that these patterns made me 6. Yet, they didn't ask WHY I might be doing those things--there were reasons I said and did all those things that had nothing to do with my core type. (I'd furthermore argue that this kind of thing is also a piss-poor understanding of the types themselves--I've definitely seen bumbling 9s do this sort of thing--fussing and over explaining. I've never seen a 6 do any of it. It is, again, a stereotype built from theory rather than practice).

- You said/did X, and type Y wouldn't say/do X. I've gotten this from otherwise decent typers, too. It doesn't matter (much) what you say or do. It matters the logic and psychology behind that action. For example I've been told I can't possibly be a 5, because I'm not detached enough. Never mind the fact that I *appear* bubbly and engaged ON A FORUM because that is the persona I have been taught gets me by in the world of Man...which is exactly the kind of roleplaying that 5s do. Yet no one grasps that things aren't always as they appear, they just see X behavior and in their paradigm, it is enough to draw a solid conclusion.

- The fact that you disagree with your typing proves it's your type. This one is mainly used for 6s. And this technique is called "Kafka Trapping", it's a kind of logical fallacy that SJWs also use, and it's total bullshit.

- Because you fight and argue with your typing, or attempt to clarify and explain, that proves that you are Type 6. Because you realize that resistance is futile and give up, that proves you are Type 9/highly phobic 6. So, no matter what you do, you'll be taken as a 9 or 6.

- "People don't really know themselves. That's why you can't see the type I think you are." I mean, can you be any more insulting? People know themselves well enough to see their types...sometimes they just aren't being told in the right way. Some people know themselves so well they lose touch with which parts are actually important. This is one problem with using behavior-based typing! Yes, it is more than possible to see a clear mistype in someone who doesn't know the enneagram that well--but it's not that they don't know themselves, it's that they haven't read about their correct type enough to get it. For real, you don't get to insinuate that you know some anonymous stranger on the internet better than they know themselves. Cut out the arrogance.

- "You put disclaimers and start sentences with sorry. That makes you a 6". I already said that I associate this more with 9s (not wanting to make waves). Why not find out what really makes the person tick? This logic could of course apply to any type--how people phrase their manners and sentence structures is partly cultural, and partly owes to many other factors.

- You're too intellectual to be 2, 8, 9, etc. Or, you must be an 8 because 8s are too thick to understand theory and you're incapable of understanding the theory according to my own twisted interpretation.

- Because "I'm very keen at typing and I'm seldom wrong in my assessments of others" so just accept what I say of you without question SAYS THE MEDIOCRE TYPER.

- That I "can't admit" that 9 is my gut center, because my parents are 9s, and I hate my parents, so therefore I'm biased against having a 9-fix. How fucking probing and assumptive can you be? And the bad faith inherent in that! Yuck.

- I must be a 6-fixer because I'm unassertive and I'm interested in researching the biographies of world leaders. Also I got into physical fights with my boyfriend to "prove I wasn't afraid". I mean, how do you even come to these conclusions??

- "You just WANT to be an N because you think Sensors are dumb". Again, how assumptive is that?? It's possible I actually see things in me that I think make me N-dom?

- You're a Feeler because you're not stooping to my level by indulging my ad hominem arguments against you hurr durr.

- "Your posts are LOADED with type X themes". Having re-assessed my posts thoroughly, no they weren't. Just stop bullshitting and admit when you're out of your depth lol. Telling someone that a post is filled with themes is not the same as thoroughly demonstrating how.

- You are so polite and friendly and thanked us all for our time, you must be a 2.

- 4s don't care about justice, you can't be a 4.

- Also somebody once told me I couldn't be a 5 because I referenced the background noise in a video I made. "Fives don't do that". As if an individual quirk has ANYTHING to do with the underlying psychological principles of type 5.

- I could go on all day because, again, I am horribly mistyped by others. Actually, I know of only 3 people who got my type right...interestingly they were all female 4s. Katherine Fauvre also got my core correct. My MBTI is habitually fucked by people who claim to be professionals, although it doesn't get questioned nearly as much.

But do you see what I mean? It's all circumstantial stuff based on superficial understandings of the types as being solely behavioral patterns, combined with a lack of actual experience as to what types look like.

Compelling reasons:

I've never heard any compelling arguments from another person tbh, because nobody ever gets it right. The best ones have been like, "I've been observing you for a year, and I feel like your attitudes are most in line with X" (and it's my wing or secondary fix or something, so it is actually close to the truth). I can at least respect that, because I see that you understand the depth involved in the types and aren't jumping to conclusions based on trivialities.

I also listen to established professionals. I don't always agree, but if you have a body of actual research to support your work, I will hear you out at least. I already mentioned how Katherine is one of the few to get my core right by following micro-expressions and my inner logic; I don't agree with everything she said, but at least she was able to demonstrate her ideas with proven patterns that apply to real people rather than just relying on guesswork, presupposition, and "logic" (because type is totally something you reason out).

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Good vs bad arguments from people who think you're mistyped

Good vs bad arguments from people who think you're mistyped

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