Wings

[Animal]

Such a goddam clusterfuck!

RANT TIME.
I think of all my friends and their enneagram types - and I can see both wings in them. It can seem so obvious that they're this wing or that, and then something throws a wrench and they're in other-wing-mode.

These recent theorists such as R&H are not the only enneagram theorists out there. Their voice is just one among many, and not even one of the first. They have no legal or moral predicate for deciding that it's them who should teach other students and certify them in enneagram. I have just as much authority to do this as they do; the difference is that the public accepts their claim on enneagram. Well, count me out!

So, I am not simply accepting parts of the current theories that don't make sense. I'll do more research but I'm wondering, where did wings come from? I never saw this in Naranjo, Almaas or Ichazo as far as I could remember. Maitri talks about each type as a balance between the surrounding wings. Those were the early students and teachers of enneagram....

What I'm saying is, wings are not a fundamental part of the theory, and the widespread use of wings "just because" isn't something I take for granted. I was willing to accept the premise since I could 'see it with my own eyes' - until I couldn't anymore. It stopped making sense.

I'm starting to feel like wings, subwings, sub-stacks, and other bells and whistles are just distracting from the real meaning of types and how they apply. We don't need those things to account for minute differences between people - because an enneagram type, or tritype, is not the whole person. There's also circumstance, choices, background, so much more -- which contributes to the ultimate design of the human being. Not to mention cognitive type, stack, etc etc.....


Anyway, that's my rant. I am currently mad at wings. And I want to talk about this. Do you guys see the presence of both wings loudly in yourself? If not, are you sure you're correctly typed? Let's dig into dis.

[Animal]

This is an especially tough question for me because I'm a heart type, therefore I relate to three on a fundamental level. But I also have a five fix and relate to five on a fundamental level. I'd rather hear from others and what your experience is, how your wings play into your psyche and whether one wing affects you more than the other.

[Qassim]

So much.

I think the most Naranjo said about it was that you can typically see yourself in the psychologies surrounding your type.

So, essentially, that we all have both wings.

I find this statement and your experience to be true in my own case. I have both wings. When I analyse my brain, it's a toss up between the two, all day long.

Yes, I notice this in others as well. Once you know what to watch for, it's very obvious, and I've been using this principle to resolve typing disputes for years.

In fact, I consider the wings to be even more key to typing than looking for core themes--some individuals "hide" their core (I did this on PerC), yet it is possible to infer it through the wings (people saw my wings and gave me typings that were totally off, because they didn't understand this principle).

It's absolutely unerring. Don't look for the core, look for the wings.

With all that being said, I do actually find in my case that I tend to "favor" one wing--by which I mean I am more identified with that self-image, those values, that particular super-ego messaging; those behaviours and reactions feel more "me" than the qualities of the other wing. It doesn't "affect" me more...so much much as it is just a matter of what I'm more consciously identified with.

I actually had to dig a little to see the other "sub" wing. I still don't value it as much as my dominant, and this is after years of working with it and making it more conscious.

So, I think the concept of a dominant wing is valid, at least in my case. I don't think the theory of a dominant wing is especially necessary or helpful to understanding the enneagram, though. There are more important factors in understanding the differences between people.

[Qassim]

Sorry if this is incoherent btw, hunger is pervasive and blood sugar is low.

[Animal]

Your post was great, actually, and read well. But I'm really sorry that's happening.. what a fucking mess you're stuck in >:/

[Qassim]

Yeah, looks like I'm stuck rationing till there's a vaccine. I got some oreos and milk, though, so I'm in less of a fog. Glad the post made sense; I was like totally gone.

[Animal]

In fact, I consider the wings to be even more key to typing than looking for core themes--some individuals "hide" their core (I did this on PerC), yet it is possible to infer it through the wings (people saw my wings and gave me typings that were totally off, because they didn't understand this principle).

It's absolutely unerring. Don't look for the core, look for the wings.

This is interesting and definitely something I've been noticing lately. If you can only see one wing and not the other so predominantly, then it may be a mistype. For people who are correctly typed -- for the most part I don't have to look far to see both wings, plain as day.

With all that being said, I do actually find in my case that I tend to "favor" one wing--by which I mean I am more identified with that self-image, those values, that particular super-ego messaging; those behaviours and reactions feel more "me" than the qualities of the other wing. It doesn't "affect" me more...so much much as it is just a matter of what I'm more consciously identified with.

I actually had to dig a little to see the other "sub" wing. I still don't value it as much as my dominant, and this is after years of working with it and making it more conscious.

So, I think the concept of a dominant wing is valid, at least in my case. I don't think the theory of a dominant wing is especially necessary or helpful to understanding the enneagram, though. There are more important factors in understanding the differences between people.

This is also interesting. The idea that you consciously identify with one wing over the other. I could see that throughout my life I 'express' both 5 or 3 traits, although which one I'm more identified with fluctuates. This is the problem I have with it. When I'm doing active stage stuff I'm identified with three and the rest of the time more identified with five. But the thing that determines whether or not I'm doing it is, to a large degree, serious chronic illness - rather than some choice I'm making or something that I'm failing to follow through on. So you might say "so, you want to do stage?" Thing is, even when I was doing stage, I was oversensitive, spent most of my time alone avoiding others in theater, wrote books or practiced by myself in the back room, and failed to market myself to the extent that I could have, both in big or small ways. But a 5 fixed four, I think, would do this regardless of 'wing.' So for me personally, between illness and the setup of my type, this is a huge clusterfuck to figure out. And if I use an objective measure like photos -- obviously I only post the photos where I look better , which are more 3ish. But out of 200 photos in a photoshoot I pick the 3ish one and the rest may look awkward, nerdy or 'wtf is with her body position??'

And really, I found that my brain can make the same circles of excuses for almost anyone when trying to figure out their wing. Maybe you hit the nail on the head - it's about self-image rather than something objective. But self-image also, to some extent, dictates our actions.

[Qassim]

This is interesting and definitely something I've been noticing lately. If you can only see one wing and not the other so predominantly, then it may be a mistype. For people who are correctly typed -- for the most part I don't have to look far to see both wings, plain as day.

Yeah, it's almost like we should be 3 types instead of 1. I'm kind of sad that this doesn't really get mentioned in any books beyond a mere passing paragraph.

Of course, people have to understand the intricacies and depths of the types well enough to detect both wings lol. Not everyone seem to unfortunately. There are people who know enneagram, and then there are people who understand enneagram.

This is also interesting. The idea that you consciously identify with one wing over the other. I could see that throughout my life I 'express' both 5 or 3 traits, although which one I'm more identified with fluctuates. This is the problem I have with it. When I'm doing active stage stuff I'm identified with three and the rest of the time more identified with five. But the thing that determines whether or not I'm doing it is, to a large degree, serious chronic illness - rather than some choice I'm making or something that I'm failing to follow through on. So you might say "so, you want to do stage?" Thing is, even when I was doing stage, I was oversensitive, spent most of my time alone avoiding others in theater, wrote books or practiced by myself in the back room, and failed to market myself to the extent that I could have, both in big or small ways. But a 5 fixed four, I think, would do this regardless of 'wing.' So for me personally, between illness and the setup of my type, this is a huge clusterfuck to figure out. And if I use an objective measure like photos -- obviously I only post the photos where I look better , which are more 3ish. But out of 200 photos in a photoshoot I pick the 3ish one and the rest may look awkward, nerdy or 'wtf is with her body position??'

It may be that you simply are identified with both. My stepfather is a 9, and for the life of me I can't figure out which wing is dominant. He doesn't really seem to have one, it's just major 9ness supported by some 1ness and 8ness. My mom clearly favors her 1-wing, but the more you look, the more 8 is there in equal measure.

It's like some people are right-handed, some are left-handed, and some are ambidextrous. Maybe the rule is the same for which wing you would favor?

But again, it's not really the most important part of enneagram. I think at most it would be a fun fact to know and tell.

And of course, if your 5-fix is secondary, this will also influence what you observe in yourself.

And really, I found that my brain can make the same circles of excuses for almost anyone when trying to figure out their wing. Maybe you hit the nail on the head - it's about self-image rather than something objective. But self-image also, to some extent, dictates our actions.

I come to this as someone who had to figure her type out not through descriptions, issues, or behaviours, but through core psychology and mechanics exactly like self-image. So I guess that will always influence my approach. I've found what works for me; guess we're each on our own quest.

[Animal]

I think my 8 is secondary because for someone with 4 and 5, I'm too "go-forth" and in my body for 5 to be secondary. Don't get me wrong, my involvement with my inner world is still tremendously overpowering my involvement with the world, but I'm quick to enter the world and get what I want from it, use it as a stage, or lead a project to gain further insights that I can bring back to "Erosia" (like with this forum). I'm open to being 8 last, but it *feels* off.

[Animal]

Four on its own can be impulsive or manic (it's a reactive type after all), but I ..really don't think before I act. I mean, I know why I'm acting, and what I want in the long run, and the purpose of my decisions. I'm not a purposeless type of gal. Like when I was a kid, my family had tvs in every room but I didn't watch with them or without them, just didn't see the point and found the static intrusive. I don't just do things because they are there, and didn't as a child either. But then also as a young kid, I took a lot of initiative - for example I had a plot in mind and bossed all the kids on the playground, telling them which roles in my world to play. And they did, because I guess I was just that commanding. I got shyer later, and more self conscious, but the pattern remains -- when it came down to something I really wanted to do, I'm more likely to have done it before having considered whether I should do it. But that's not ... a lot of things. I don't just do things that don't matter.

[Qassim]

I see what you mean.

[[redacted]]

I always liked the idea of each type being a blend of of its adjacent types. Makes it more meaningful than something like, say, "if you're a 5w4 you prefer art and if you're a 5w6 you prefer science."

[BalalaikaBoy]

even 17yo me read Wisdom of the Enneagram and looked at that section like "seriously....." -_-

[inkreservoir]

The way it was explained to me (thanks Quindary) is that your core type emerges through both wings coming together and a rejection of both; with "your wing" being the one that is more heavily repressed and therefore causes more dramatic consequences when it's relevant. This explanation made sense to and has been useful for me. I definitely see both 8 and 6 in myself, but 8 is more aspirational and when that's the way I'm leaning, while the intensity of my reaction can upset me, I also tend to find it really fun and will enjoy recounting it later with some fake remorse. It doesn't always come out as anger but it can also be stubbornness/bossiness and while these traits haven't exactly done me well they probably wouldn't bother me at all if it weren't for the unpleasant social interactions they sometimes result in.

With 6, though... oh boy. That one touches on things I really hate about myself. I like to imagine myself as uninhibited and unstoppable but I'm honestly a very hesitant person and if something seems hard I just avoid it. Sometimes I'll rationalize this into being the reasonable, proper reaction, but most of the time if I'm forced to acknowledge it at all it makes me feel gross and awful. The inner conflict I have over my doubts and fears is dramatic and can really take me to a bad place. For these reasons, though it kind of feels like a sick joke because it's one of my least favourite things about myself, I consider myself to be 7w6. The information it communicates isn't so much for other people - I don't want people to know this about me LMAO - and it certainly isn't to say what "flavour" of Seven I am. It's more useful for my own reference to know that okay, this is the thing I really dread about myself, this is the thing I avoid, this is the thing causing dramatic levels of insecurity.

For my cousin who's a 9 it's pretty much the opposite - she was calling herself 9w1 but I think she's way more comfortable with her self-criticism than she is with her drive and relentless determination, which she sees as reckless and self-destructive. Not that she's a fan of 1 either, but the problems that connection causes aren't as much of a sore spot and so they're less intense when they come up. So with this definition I think wings are useful, but if they're just being used to purposelessly tell people fun quirks or as a crutch for rationalizing a type that doesn't really fit, I agree that that isn't a compelling reason to use them.

EDIT: Turns out I'm 2 core!

[BalalaikaBoy]

In most people, I look at "which is their dominant wing"? Personally, I think I'm closer to the center. I have some of the calm, laconic demeanor of 9, but I also tend to be a little wittier and more mentally agile like a 7. As much as I'd like to, I don't think I present with quite the gravitas of a more archetypal 8w9, nor do I have the boundless energy most people associate with 8w7.

Impressionistically at least, my fixes are easier. My 5 is more like 5w4 (caverns, cemeteries, dark libraries, abandoned buildings), and my 4 fix clearly presents more like 4w3 (sophistication, erudition, boldly embroidered dress, contempt/superiority).