Scarlett O'Hara

[La Dame Aux Roses]

What type is Scarlett O'Hara from Gone with the Wind? Or what type-related themes do you see in her character? Vote and discuss.

[La Dame Aux Roses]

It's honestly been so long since I saw the film (never read the book) that I can only remember bits and pieces and impressions. Animal mentioned noticing 4 themes in her character, particularly themes of envy, which admittedly surprised me. I do remember her envy of Melanie in the first half of the movie, but I connected it more with a 2ish storyline (being the belle of the ball but loving this one disinterested person), or maybe a 3ish storyline (wanting what she couldn't have). I saw competitive jealousy rather than identity-based envy.

But what struck me as the focal point of her character was deciding and working to rebuild Tara. I could see this as an expression of the themes of any of the three heart types. It feels like it could be an expression of the 'return to origin' theme, in which case it could be 2 or 4, but just the fact that she was literally building and rebuilding made it read 3ish to me.

As a 2 I didn't find her easy to relate to, partly just because of the cinematic style of the period where you were meant to guess at emotions, but nonetheless she seemed cut off from emotions to me, which for me gave me a gut feeling of 3ishness.

[Animal]

La Dame Aux Roses
I thought of her as a four a long time ago. I've actually been rethinking her type but I doubted myself. I'm very, very open to retyping her. To me the top candidates then would be 2 and 7. I'll add more thoughts a bit later.

And yeah, talking about the film. I never read the book either. The actress Vivien Leigh appears to be a 1.

[La Dame Aux Roses]

Unrelated to Scarlett O'Hara but I didn't want to create a whole new thread for this trivial thing (sorry, not used to the norms of this website), because 2 and 7 were being discussed, I wondered if anyone had opinions on Sophie Ellis-Bextor, I was enjoying this 'kitchen disco' thing she did during lockdown and couldn't decide if she was a 2 or a 7, she's so stereotypically 7 but somehow she gives me a 2 vibe so I was just wondering if anyone had opinions on all this fancy body language and vocal tone stuff (:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUlg8E5RiVw

random interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyy5TFBcWas

[Animal]

La Dame Aux Roses
I don't see why building and rebuilding would be more 3ish than it would be 2ish or 4ish. However, the question is, what is she building and why?

A four will break themselves open, over and over, to get in touch with their own darkness and relive it. This isn't about 'bad relationships' but more about something intrapersonal.

Twos can be addicted to the darkness of a 'bad romance,' but four is more about reliving their own personal tragedies in order to rise from the ashes. This may sound spiritually advanced but it can manifest in a bad way when the four is reenacting tragedies over and over, getting addicted to the process of living at the apex of their own suffering rather than ever outgrowing it.

I just saw a video on Jared Leto which exemplifies this well.

I have come to see him as a four who is often mistyped as a 3 just because he's successful and gorgeous. Once I started getting into him I thought, this is no 3. This guy is far too socially awkward and raw. I looked into 6, 1, and other types, but 4 it is, when you start looking into his own music, directing, and history - and how he reenacts his darkness over and over again through method acting. Also taking a look at his outfits alone, it's no 3. He likes to mock Hollywood and fame itself through his wardrobe. This is a guy who runs off and does his own thing regardless of how much it will cost him socially or financially. But he is unmarried and has no kids that he knows about (darkly jokes that he might have kids somewhere, subtly reenacting his father who abandoned his family as a child). He writes songs with odes to his mother, which as a four myself, I relate to - I praise the hell out of my family and they damn well deserve it. A four is a mirror, to some extent. If you're good to them then they're good to you. But they will introject their tragedies and the people who hurt them most, and play that out ad nauseum, doing it in a glamorous and dark way - but the focus is on transformation and suffering rather than being on "keeping up the mystery for the sake of seduction" which is more of a 2 thing, or "creating the most impressive winning image" more like a 3. When 3s grow to 6, they become exceptionally generous too.

So, getting back to Scarlett... (now I'm going to have to post that whole paragraph on the Jared Leto thread lol...)

I don't see her reenacting any deep personal tragedy. I don't see her attention being on destroying herself and rebuilding from the ashes. The reason I went for four in the first place was exactly because of the romantic themes around origin, but I realize the more and more years I do enneagram that these one-word keys can be confusing and misleading. Any type can focus on a return to origin. Four struggles specifically with the idea that they share the same origin as everyone else, and that their journey is not a separate one - separate from others and from God. A four may not even sit around thinking about being unique. They take that for granted. At the same time they are constantly defying the status quo by "expressing themselves" at any cost. (I put it in quotes because, expressing what self? Is the self you're striving to express really honest, or is it your idea of yourself? This is where the lie comes in.)

Twos and threes are much more likely to think, "What is my unique brand?" - and then push that forward. As far as I can tell, Scarlett wears her unique brand of clothes and wants to make an impression. Ok, so far this could be any type, especially any image type, though others may do it too. But I don't see some "inner self" that she's specifically striving to express. The closest thing is her feelings for Ashley, which she extraverts. She sighs and cries and screams them to the skies. She craves an interpersonal interaction where she is expressing her feelings. Again this is a key word that can look fourish superficially "Expressing her feelings" - but everyone has real feelings that they need to express. So why is it four, just to be in love with someone and wish to express it? Answer: it isn't.

But Scarlett seems overall more aware of the audience and the impression she's making than of carefully reenacting a tragedy that is internal, and that is placed somewhere in the past. She replays her loss of Ashley ad nauseum, but isn't this 2ish? It kind of reminds me of Lana Del Rey, who says she'll always be in love with the same guy, and all her songs are about him - and she expresses and gushes over and over. It also reminds me of Christine from Phantom of the Opera who I believe is a 269 of some sort (not sure what leads). I'm talking about the show by the way, not the book which I haven't read.

There's a romanticizing of an actual person, rather than some archetypal concept representing your own brokenness. In what way would Ashley represent Scarlett's brokenness? She never focuses on his flaws or HIS brokenness. She is focused on how perfect and lovely he is, which strikes me as being pride-like. A 2's pride extends to their loved ones.

What do you think La Dame Aux Roses ? I think now that I've written this out I'm thinking more and more that four is off, so I think we agree on that. I'm curious what makes you choose 3 over 2.

[Animal]

To add more thoughts on four and why "origin" doesn't make her fourish - her return to origin means bringing Tara, her family's plantation, back to life. This is not her own separate, personal, individual origin, but rather the one she was given. She made it her own, but hey - 2s can be willful. Two is the type of pride and will, and bringing back your family's broken origin would exactly be something a strong willful 2 would take pride in doing. And then trying to prostitute herself in order to get the job done? Another classic unhealthy 2 move.

[La Dame Aux Roses]

Animal thanks for the long response, your final point especially is very convincing!

I'm not familiar with Jared Leto (his name means summer in Russian which is fun though ) but your points make a lot of sense, I think that's a really helpful distinction. I love this 'Four struggles specifically with the idea that they share the same origin as everyone else, and that their journey is not a separate one' by the way. Agree with most of your thoughts about Scarlett and I will struggle to express myself with similar eloquence (:

I'm not sure why I associated 'building' so much with 3, I think in general I struggle to see 3 as more than the 'businessman' stereotype and it feels to me like 3 wants to build up structures to hide behind and also to leave an impression, make their impact felt (like Hamilton 'Lord help and forgive me, I want to build something that's going to outlive me') but, obviously, that's not Scarlett's motivation so it's beside the point.

And I was going to make more arguments for 3 (specifically that she doesn't come across very 'hungry', 2 to me feels they're waiting for the world to give them something, even while they're pushing themselves onto other people, whereas 3 feels a little smoother, and her image at the beginning of the movie is so controlled, she feels calculated - probably just my bias) but I was watching some clips and I think I'd have to capitulate. This scene for instance is pretty darn 2, 'I could give you...' repeating 'you love me' (probably not super type-specific but still), plus his 'you love something more than me...it's dirt!! have some dirt!!!' lol makes the Tara arc feel more about finding her own identity instead of one based on other people (line to 4)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCWsCtKZ2B0

Plus I think the 'being in love with Ashley, pursuing him, realizing she's actually in love with Rhett, pursuing him' is a pretty classic 2 pattern, Maitri described this in the little picture attached

Could also see a decent argument for 7 because she seems sensitive to the idea of being imposed against and likes playfully going against what society told her, plus what is mentioned in the Wikipedia article 'she married Rhett "for fun" and because he is wealthy' but I'm not sure that 'for fun' is meant to be taken on face value.

There's something about her that still doesn't 'ring' 2 to me, maybe as you said it has to do with the actress being a 1, but I agree that 2 is a better thematic fit than 4 and probably 3 too.

Btw about Christine, I'd agree with 269 for sure and it's hard to determine a type I think because she's written quite vaguely and it's hard to get inside her head. Probably depends a lot on the interpretation of the actress. I wouldn't think she was a 9 though (despite the wispishness) because I don't see a relationship with anger there, and I'd probably lean 6, it seems her big theme is wanting guidance, though I'd be pleased to claim her as a 2!

[La Dame Aux Roses]

^What I meant with the thing about 2 and 3 is that 2 is usually full of this sense of NEED whereas 3 is filled with this sense of CHOICE, which is more what I got from Scarlett, also what could be 7ish about her

edit: not that 2 has to be needy per say, like Sophie Ellie-Bextor who I linked to above I'm thinking more and more is a 2 but she doesn't come across needy at all, I clarify this because I'm trying to avoid making the argument '2s have to have all my faults', I just mean that there's a neediness which brings a different dimension, different kind of urgency, which I don't see with Scarlett, with 3 there's something more fearful about 3 (I don't know if that's what the actual lived experience is but it's how it comes across to me), in-built sense of equilibrium, which came across to me more)

but basically I don't know what 3 is

[Animal]

La Dame Aux Roses
After some time away, I have been seeing more and more 1 in Scarlett.
It may sound crazy, but hear me out.

First of all, 1 women can be extremely emotionally explosive. This isn't handled well in the text - but these are gut types with lines to 7 and 4. They are not all quiet nuns. You probably know this already.

But Scarlett is a business-minded woman, she's prissy, perfectionistic, dressed perfectly at all times. Angry, accusatory. Angry ones often show more jealousy outright than four leads, who are ashamed by it.

Not all ones have this type of temperament, but some do. I might place her at 127 tritype. Prissy, intense, excitable, glorious and prideful, lots of outward emotions a la 2 and 7, but at the core a prissy, snarky, better-than-you 1 who does a perfect job at everything she does.

*Shrug* Just a thought. Not married to it. What do you think?