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    Morrissey

    Let's talk about Morrissey! I've always seen him as almost the quintessential Four, and learning that Daeva and Animal have come to type him as a Two (provisionally) I thought he would be a great example to discuss these two types and what makes them distinct.

    Linking a couple interviews (that I haven't actually watched - or remember watching, at least) plus a couple songs that seem stereotypically 2ish or 4ish just to get the thread going.

    (his name has two r'ss and two s's in case anyone else panics literally every time)






    There is something I wanted to tell you
    It's so funny you'll kill yourself laughing
    But then I, I look around
    And I remember that I am alone
    Alone
    For evermore
    The tile yard all along the railings
    Up a discolored dark brown staircase
    Here you'll find, despair and I
    Calling to you with what's left of my heart
    My heart
    For evermore
    Drinking tea with the taste of the Thames
    Sullenly on a chair on the pavement
    Here you'll find, my thoughts and I
    And here is the very last plea from my heart
    My heart
    For evermore
    Where taxi drivers never stop talking
    Under slate grey Victorian sky,
    Here you will find, despair and I
    And here I am every last inch of me is yours,
    Yours
    For evermore
    Your leg came to rest against mine
    Then you lounged with knees up and apart
    And me and my heart, we knew
    We just knew
    For evermore



    (look I know every breakup song is not a 2 song but I couldn't think of something better and this is one of his best songs)



    Sleep on and dream of love
    Because it's the closest you will
    Get to love
    Poor twisted child
    So ugly, so ugly
    Poor twisted child
    Oh hug me, oh hug me
    One November
    Spawned a monster
    In the shape of this child
    Who later cried :
    But Jesus made me, so
    Jesus save me from
    Pity, sympathy
    And people discussing me
    A frame of useless limbs
    What can make good
    All the bad that's been done ?
    And if the lights were out
    Could you even bear
    To kiss her full on the mouth
    (or anywhere?)
    Oh, poor twisted child
    So ugly, so ugly
    Poor twisted child
    Oh hug me, oh hug me
    One November
    Spawned a monster
    In the shape of this child
    Who must remain
    A hostage to kindness
    And the wheels underneath her
    A hostage to kindness
    And the wheels underneath her
    A symbol of where mad, mad lovers
    Must pause and draw the line.
    So sleep and dream of love
    Because it's the closest
    You will get to love
    That November
    Is a time
    Which I must
    Put out of my mind
    Oh, one fine day
    Let it be soon
    She won't be rich or beautiful
    But she'll be walking your streets
    In the clothes that she went out
    And chose for herself.
    Last edited by La Dame Aux Roses; 01-10-2021, 07:08 PM.

    #2
    This is hard. Bc, I don't know where animal and daeva are coming from. Perhaps they are ahead of the curve? So far ahead I mean, that by attributing a type, they are getting ahead of the very projection of the type. He (morrisey) seems to me, like a going toward sort, but he lacks the end-game of existing in the place, if that makes sense. (ie, withdrawn) JMO.

    Comment


      #3
      Ok, I was very willing to see Morrissey as a 2 thinking about his music, but what strikes me in the interviews is how willing he is to correct and criticize and tut-tut the other person (he's being good-natured and humorous about it but also very serious), it feels really line-to-1 and maybe a little envy-ish, I think I would think 1 or 4 going on the interviews alone. He's also very (painfully) earnest, tangibly prideful in a way that makes me think his pride is not based as much on how other people relate to him, in this way he reminds me a lot of Stephen Fry, who I have also always assumed to be a 4. Like, and of course this is my bias, I've never seen a 2 who was this willing to seem prideful, while 1ish types (including 4 and 7) are ok with it because their pride is based on their rightness, not their own selves. And I'm getting more of the former from Morrissey. Very much slipping into a mentorish role with Russell Brand, I think he has to be genuinely very grounded and serious and judgemental to be able to stand his ground there, he's not just being contrary for the sake of it I think

      He's also IEI, yeah? maybe some of it is Se seeking

      Comment


        #4


        hmmm
        Last edited by Full_fathom; 01-10-2021, 08:44 PM.

        Comment


        • La Dame Aux Roses
          La Dame Aux Roses commented
          Editing a comment
          If I understand you, I think that's where I'm at too.
          edit: I mean, on Morrissey's typing. Good observation, think that explains exactly what feels 4 and not 2.
          Last edited by La Dame Aux Roses; 01-13-2021, 01:52 PM.

        • Full_fathom
          Full_fathom commented
          Editing a comment
          I have to apologize, not always making myself understandable. with everything.
          Last edited by Full_fathom; 01-13-2021, 10:25 PM.

        • La Dame Aux Roses
          La Dame Aux Roses commented
          Editing a comment
          No problem, I have like 0 Ti so have trouble parsing sometimes

        #5
        Ohh Ohh, sorry I've been away from forum for a while. I'll come back here, just writing a note to self.

        Comment


          #6
          To add a couple thoughts prompted by the interviews (btw not trying to be pushy about this thread or anything, just been turning around some thoughts in the back of my mind):

          -I do think Jonathan Ross is a 2 actually! Even though he seems attachment typey and I could definitely believe 6 or even 3, spent a while watching him in a panel show context and he seems more 2ish there, plus in this interview he's constantly doing things to reaffirm the connection, I mean in general Feish but notable is that Morissey is not doing this at all, doesn't seem concerned that he's not doing it, isn't primarily rebelling against the idea of doing it, I think that would be a really uncomfortable position for a 2 to maintain except in an openly antagonistic 8ish way

          -There's a moment when Russell Brand -Russell Brand - warns him about saying this dumb-ass thing that eating animals is as bad as the Holocaust, and I characterize it as a dumb-ass thing to say because I don't think he's trying to be offensive in an 8ish 'can you take it?' way, he just genuinely believes that the lives of animals are equivalent to the lives of human beings and nothing is going to make him back down from that opinion and he's buckling down there and insisting on putting it in the most extreme terms to show how right he is, which to me shows a really strong 1 and not 8ish bent, he phrases it in a provocative way but to me it's not 2ishly provocative, as in he's not actively trying to get a reaction, he just really thinks he's right, there's so much 1ishness there

          also, textbook 4, 'How Could Anybody Possibly Know How I Feel?':



          so yes I think I am very confident with a 4 typing, would need a wildly different version of the types to change my mind

          edit: maybe a lot of this is Fi-ish but still

          Comment


            #7
            Hey, I've shifted some people around in folders, trying to get a more accurate viewing of the distinct visual differences in type, and this included Morrissey.

            I have him as a type 7 currently. To comment not on level of expertise, but on attitudes, Morrissey seems to be most similar to the likes of Quentin Tarantino, who is widely recognized as a type 7 himself. While I am not very familiar with Morrissey's work and life, I wouldn't be surprised to find parallels between the two. The biggest differences between the two seem to stem from the gut: 8 fix for Tarantino, 1 fix for Morrissey. Both share type 2 in the heart. This may be for a future post.

            Sleep on the Ceiling - Erosian Exile

            Comment


              #8
              'How Could Anybody Possibly Know How I Feel?':
              Why is this four? Isn't that just... human?

              I mean, "how could someone KNOW" sounds... heady.

              "Feel what I feel" is more four.. introjection. Like a shared heart space. "We have shared suffering."
              A four will feel fundamentally separate, but will find resonance with other individuals in shared suffering.
              A four will have a strong idea of their own identity and their life is about finding a way to express it.
              So there isn't this frustrated "You don't know how I feel!" all by itself - it's more like, "I can't possibly express how I feel!" and constantly striving to find the right medium, outfit, or identity in order to "capture" it.
              "You don't know!" is more projection and could really be any type just projecting their own insecurity. I've heard my friends complain about this more than I ever would. Because for me, I've spent so much time thinking about how separate and distinct my feelings are that I almost take this for granted.
              Allow me to share my own poem that I've shared to explain type four for years. I wrote this after losing my singing voice.

              am ii too jagged
              or is the world too perfectly round?
              sometimes ii feel like everyone else is lost
              and ii, alone, am found.
              but if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it
              does it make a sound?
              that question is what keeps me
              so tightly bound.


              --
              Remember that four is a version of 3. With any heart type, there's a sense that you have to work to create an image. A four has to work on an image, a talent, or some presentation that communicates what's inside. That wears it on the outside.

              A frustrated "You don't know how I feel!" could be four but also could be a lot of types. Let's use 7 for example. They feel frustrated (as much as a 4 or 1) - that something "isn't enough." They also feel entitled to have what they want. That's the 7 fixation. And they are focused on knowing, mind. So "You don't know how I feel!" as if someone is just entitled to be understood, and to get the nurturance they want in that moment, could come from such a place. I could explain for any type why they might feel that way though.

              It really irks me in general that "human emotions" (like feeling misunderstood by others) get linked to four in RH. All the types are human yes, but this isn't really a thing that "indicates" any type. With four the question is, how do they bridge the gap? How do they make that tree that falls in the woods 'make a sound?'

              Comment


                #9
                Here's a few examples of clear non-fours singing "You don't know how I feel!"
                Head types.... focus on "knowing"
                In my songs I tend to sing that he doesn't feel what I feel.. he doesn't want me as much as I want him.. etc. That's more the envy.. desire... wanting. Not so much focus on what he "knows."





                Not sure how to type this person or who it is, but this shows it is a common 'bluesy' sentiment...



                As a four myself I'd say it's a bit too common and mundane to write that into a song... like it doesn't really need to be said. Obviously, we're all separate individuals so no one knows how anyone feels. Ok. What else? I'd rather sing about how I feel, communicate it.

                Here's two people who are fours singing about how they feel, using nature metaphors etc. Fours are big on this --- they see their own feelings reflected in nature and other things (introjection). And the song structure of a four often starts with a general sentiment, then asks questions and digs deeper until they unveil the truth of what THEY themselves feel. And what all of this is really about on a bare emotional level. The idea is to communicate your own inner identity, feelings and desires.

                Jared Leto (30 Seconds to Mars)
                "Echelon"


                Look at the red red changes in the sky
                Look at the separation in the border line
                But don't look at everything here inside
                And be afraid, afraid to speak your mind

                It took a moment before I lost myself in here
                It took a moment and I could not be found?
                Again and again and again and again I see your face in everything
                It took a moment the moment it could not be found?

                What's with the fascination with the Echelon
                What's with the constant questions that you have this time
                What's with this circumstancial consequence
                Find oversight before this night will ever rise again
                It's all you've got inside your head, better get up and leave instead

                It took a moment before I lost myself in here
                It took a moment and I could not be found?
                Again and again and again and again I see your face in everything
                It took a moment the moment it could not be found?

                To find ourselves lost here within we need the reasons why
                So we take this bridge with the other's that will thrive in the great divide

                Look at the red red changes in the sky

                Again and again and again and again I see your face in everything
                Again and again and again and again I see your face in everything

                It took a moment before I lost myself in here
                It took a moment and I could not be found?
                Again and again and again and again I see your face in everything
                It took a moment the moment it could not be found?
                Here's another - Lorde. (I'm just picking random songs here. I don't listen to Lorde at all, but I have seen enough to type her, all at once, and then forgot all her stuff, because musically I am not into the sound. But I just typed in "Lorde" and literally posted the first song that I happened to click on, without checking to see if it matched my point. Lo and behold, it did.)


                "Suicide And Other Comforts"


                I pace, alone
                In a place for the dead
                Overcome by woe
                And here, I've grown
                So fond of dread
                That I swear it's heaven

                Oh sweet Mary,
                Dressed in grief
                Roll back the stone

                With these words scrawled in a severed hand
                Tears fall like shards of glass that band
                In rivers, like sinners
                Swept with me to join the damned

                A darkened sky
                The day that laughter died
                Fell swiftly into night
                And stayed within Her sight
                Staring at the knife
                Oh God, how easy now the sacrifice
                My life, to have Her with me

                So farewell to distant thunder
                Those inept stars I've worshipped under
                Fall father, their Father
                Lies in wait in flames below
                Whilst my love, a blood red flower
                Calls to me from verdant bowers
                Graveside, I cry
                Please save me from this Hell I know

                A darkened sky
                The day that laughter died
                Fell swiftly into night
                And stayed within Her sight
                Staring at the knife
                Oh God, how easy now to sacrifice
                My life, to have Her with me

                An eye for an eye as espied in the bible
                My faith is lost to the burning of idols
                One less cross to press upon the survival
                Of this lorded agony

                And I, (much as I have tried
                To bury Her from mind,
                Fate's tourniquet was tied, when She died...)
                Still sense Her presence so divine
                Lithe arms about my throat
                Like pining swans entwined
                Footfalls at nightfall close to mine

                Suicide is a tried and tested formula for release

                I snatch Her whisper like the wind through cedars
                See Her face in every natural feature
                Midst the mist and sleepy hollows of fever...
                With glee deceiving me

                Suicide is a tried and tested formula for release

                I hear Her voice from where the grave defies Her
                Siren song to sing along, no finer
                Suicide notes, harmonised in a minor
                Strike a chord with misery

                No light nor reef
                No unsinkable of romance keeps me
                Safely from the stormy seas
                Now drowning, resounding
                Death-knells pound my dreams
                Unthinkable to dredge through this
                Listless and lonely winter frieze

                A darken sky
                This day hereafter dies
                Falls swiftly into night
                And stays within my sight
                Staring at the knife
                Oh God, how ease it was to sacrifice
                My life, to have Her with me

                No more a victim of a crusade
                Where souls are strung from a moral palisade
                I slit my wrists and quickly slip away...
                I journey now on jewelled sands
                Beneath a moon to Summerlands
                To grace Her lips with contraband
                The blaze once in my veins
                Last edited by Animal; 01-21-2021, 07:23 PM.

                Comment


                  #10
                  Not very sure what to do with visual typing, to me Morrissey looks nothing like Quentin Tarantino except so far as all faces look similar if compared, let me make just a little placeholder reply

                  *how could anybody know how I FEEL? But the reason I brought up the song was because it reminded me of the 4 theme you've brought up, Animal, that 4s often have trouble seeing how they could see how they have anything in common with anyone else. I think (but I don't remember where I read it) he said that he wrote it because he had trouble believing that any of the people who claimed to relate to his music really did. I certainly didn't mean that anytime anyone says 'no one understands me!' it's a 4 thing The song itself is working on the lines of the Groucho Marx paradox, it's also a bit...contemptuous. Can definitely buy 7 more than 2, imo he's definitely a frustration type

                  She told me she loved me
                  which means
                  she must be insane
                  Ive had my face dragged in
                  fifteen miles of shit
                  and I do not / and I do not
                  and I do not like it
                  so how can anybody say
                  they know how I feel?
                  the only one around here who is me
                  is me
                  They said they respect me
                  which means
                  their judgment is crazy
                  Ive had my face dragged in
                  fifteen miles of shit
                  and I do not / and I do not
                  and I do not like it
                  so how can anybody say
                  they know how I feel?
                  when they are they
                  and only I am I
                  He says he wants to befriend me
                  which means
                  he cant possibly know me
                  the voices of the real
                  and the imagined cry:
                  the future is passing you by
                  the future is passing you by.
                  so how can anybody possibly think they
                  know how I feel?
                  everybody look / see pain /walk away
                  and as for you in your uniform
                  your smelly uniform
                  and so you think you can be rude to me
                  because you wear a uniform
                  a smelly uniform
                  and so you think you can be rude to me
                  but even I / as sick as I am
                  I would never be you
                  even I / as sick as I am
                  I would never be you
                  even I / sick and depraved
                  a traveler to the grave
                  I would never be you


                  Interestingly in his interview with Russell Brand, Brand brings up the sense of entitlement, around 6:50, 'my personal antagonism was related to a sense of entitlement, I thought there had been some terrible mix-up, and I actually don't believe you when you say that [doesn't apply] to your own life, cause I thought for ages, 'come on, I'm sure I'm brilliant, where on earth's my money?' and then Morrissey rebukes him for not having something in mind that he was actually brilliant at, calls it smugness. Maybe Russell Brand is right to disbelieve him, idk, when I watched that I thought 'silly man projecting his own experience onto other people'.

                  Why wouldn't Morrissey be a 1, if he isn't a heart type?

                  edit: don't make too much of this but while 'nobody knows how I feel' might be human I don't think it's universal...like it was never a question that bothered me that much. Also, I think 'nobody knows how I feel' means the same as 'nobody feels what I feel', not sure if that's a worthwhile line to draw? But I haven't listened to these other songs yet))

                  Comment


                    #11
                    Originally posted by La Dame Aux Roses View Post
                    He's also IEI, yeah? maybe some of it is Se seeking
                    coming back again, there's nothing 'off' with your take here. This seeming pride is the confluence of the journey itself, a solemn reflection of the hardship. where one becomes a man(woman), even it it doesn't entail sports or egos, and girls(boys). It's existential.

                    The thing about the hearts (focusing 4 for a second), there's a sort of sinew that underlies the being. The thinking types go along very confident opposed to this type of hardship/relation. The guts... lost to their oblivion. It's a natural equilibrium, in a way. The heart more or less possesses no objectivity; you can cook it, but you pbly don't want to eat it.

                    Let's split the difference for a second. I offer Neil Diamond (a 3 of course)

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf1S9U2ghrI

                    With 4, there is the pre-disposed, with the 3 a wanting, and 2...... a form of entertaining (love). Climbing the ladder, in an E way.

                    I am, I cried, the heart mantra. A fibrous existence, of doing, triumph and despair.
                    Last edited by Full_fathom; 01-30-2021, 09:59 PM.

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