House

[a2jc4life]

I mentioned House (from the show House) in another thread and am bringing the discussion here so as not to take away from the purpose of that thread. I'm not great at pulling video clips, so I'll leave that to someone else, but I can give my rationale for pegging him as a 5-fixed 8.

A lot of it boils down to the old behavior-versus-motivation discussion. If you only watch a little of the show here or there, you see the behavior, but I think the motivation doesn't become apparent unless you watch a good bit of it.

So what Dr. House is primarily known for is his obsession with solving medical puzzles. That seems pretty 5-ish. But they're a means to an end.

His primary driver is control instead of vulnerability. Solving puzzles is something he can control. And as much as he doesn't like people to see it, he really cares about his patients. He hates to fail at a puzzle, not because he failed at the puzzle, but because he feels like he failed the patient.

The reason he's addicted to painkillers is not, primarily, pain; it's vulnerability. He's less concerned about medicating the pain for the sake of the pain itself than for the sake of hiding what he perceives as a weakness.

He creates distance between himself and everyone else. There are only a couple people he trusts enough to let get close to him, and even then, as soon as things seem to maybe be turning serious, he pushes off again, because he can't deal with feelings or vulnerability.

He doesn't show affection, but underneath his gruff exterior, he deeply cares about those who are part of "his" circle. He doesn't show it in conventional ways, and he doesn't want to admit to it, but it's there.

But he's also really unhealthy, so he's pretty disintegrated to 5, using it to create some of the distance and detachment he craves to keep him "safe" from showing what's inside the shell.

Most of this is, I think, more apparent in the last couple of seasons than it is early on.

[a2jc4life]

Here's one that gets past the shield a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_92ViCxQZ8

[a2jc4life]

Denial: https://gfycat.com/nippytensechrysomelid

Perpetually angry & sarcastic.

Treats the world as if it revolves around him. Assumes everyone will just do whatever he says -- and they generally do.

[Eclipsed]

"I don't feel miserable or angry. I don't feel good or bad. I feel nothing."
9 narcotization to the point of "numbness"

[Daeva]

I think that comment can apply to 5, 6, 8, 9, and many others, given the depression and addiction. Eclipsed

[a2jc4life]

I don't think that statement of his is TRUE, though, like we'd expect with 9. He is both miserable and angry, and denying both because to admit to them would be a sign of weakness.

[Eclipsed]

He's exactly like a fictional Jordan Peterson but with a fix on the 8/9 line. He's certainly narcissistic, but I wouldn't say that he necessarily acts as if the world revolves around him. He constantly has one eyebrow raised, doubtful and always keeping others "on their toes," holding back himself and what he's thinking for the purposes of watching(avarice) but ultimately towards an end of rooting out inconsistencies, uncovering the REAL reasons behind medical and interpersonal phenomena, and testing other people(suspicion and being an alarmist) - this isn't 5 fixed, purely out of the nature of how ATTACHED this sort of behavior is, however this IS very consistent with 6w5s, and in House's case, giving him the impression that the world revolves around him. I don't really see THAT much 8 in him either, sure he has some minor gravitas, but he's much more passive-aggressive in his expression of anger, and has a certain cognitive elasticity that does let him easily consider other points of view(even when he's trying to best them) - he ultimately proves one of my theories about 6 fixed 9s or 9 fixed 6s making sure that "their eyes aren't tricking them."

6w5(7w6)-9w8(1w9)-3w4(4w5) is my full typing of him. An inherently triple-attached person with the withdrawn wings and the "anointed one in exile" fixation(3w4(4w5)) last.

[a2jc4life]

I think one thing this highlights is why we DON'T type other people on their behalf. Because we can look at the same behaviors, body language, etc., and see something completely different. I see the body language Eclipsed perceives as skepticism, and I see disdain. A sense of superiority. This is a character we're talking about, not a real person, so that puts this in a somewhat different realm, but if he *were* a real person, who's to say whether y'all are right that he's expressing skepticism or I'm right that he's expressing disdain, or that neither is the case and he's expressing something else entirely? Only he knows for sure what he's thinking and what's motivating him.

[Eclipsed]

Well he's certainly disdainful, emotionally. But how is he not skeptical? He's CONSTANTLY testing people and seeking out what's /really/ going on behind people, their words, the situation, etc. It's very heady and implicitly displays suspicion. We were seeing the same thing but paying attention to different pronounced aspects. But in terms of his heuristics, his orientation, he's definitely a skeptic. You see what I mean sorta?

[a2jc4life]

"But in terms of his heuristics, his orientation, he's definitely a skeptic. You see what I mean sorta?"

I see what you mean; I just disagree. Yes, I think he displays some skepticism. "Everybody lies." But I don't think it's his primary orientation. I think his primary orientation is of having to hold the power. Even his skepticism is a tool toward that end -- if you assume you have all the information and they throw you a curveball, then they've exploited a weakness (intentionally or not). And he can't have that, so he has to anticipate that. *Expect* that he may or may not have all the information, so he can't be caught off-guard.

[Eclipsed]

[Daeva]

Yeah I see it! Very similar prankster style 5. I can get behind Sp/Sx also, the instinct was the part I was the least confident in.

[a2jc4life]

When you say he "constantly has one eyebrow raised," are you being literal or figurative?

[Eclipsed]

Figurative, forgive my lack of clarity

[a2jc4life]

It's fine; just wanted to be sure we're on the same page.

[Daeva]

I wanted to comment on House, so I'm glad this thread exists!

First I want to say that I really don't think he can be a 6w5 with 9. I've never seen this combo engage the world with such constant aggressive testing - including myself as a 6w5 with 9. Instead, I see him having 8 in the gut and I'm not opposed to considering for lead (though I suspect he leads with Head). His battles for power and control of his environment are 8 and have little to do with 6. I do relate to his "Everybody lies" attitude, so there's that, and I do give him a 6 wing on his core, but aside from that his and my type are just not the same.

In the Head space it seems there is agreement on the 5/6 corner. I also agree with this. I do think it is 5 > 6, personally. He is a chess player first and foremost. He treats people as pawns to be manipulated for his own benefit. This benefit can result in concrete gains, but it is mostly to have mental leverage over his victims. I say victims because he is indeed a predator and he does not hide it, which is why the 8 in the gut looks very good to me. However, the way he approaches this comes from the Head center, and it is still a position in need of power and control first and foremost. So I agree with a2jc4life about his motives, I just don't agree that this automatically points towards type 8. Type 5 is HUGELY invested in control and power and not being in the vulnerable position (hence the need for power), and in fact I think that every point listed in the OP applies to type 5.

Of course, I could be mistaken and be mislead by the actor, Hugh Laurie, who is almost certainly a 5w6 core. The character House seems much more aggressive and narcissistic and generally fucked up than the actor (thank God), but I do think that part of the show's (and the main character's) success lies in the great casting. A casting where it doesn't demand that the actor acts too differently for their role, where the motivations lie close to the heart. So I am inclined to think that the character does indeed lead from the Head center, even though some type 5 actors can definitely pull off a great 8 character. I suppose it is possible that it's a 5w6 actor trying to play a 6w5, but the power themes are just so overwhelming that I think this is extremely unlikely.

My typing of House: 5w6 8w7 3w4 Sx

[a2jc4life]

Fair enough.

[Animal]

After I first got sick I definitely "disintegrated" to 1. I became very judgmental of myself, borderline anorexic, working out constantly, getting perfect grades, trying to control everything about my own fate and body. Later on the "disintegration" moved to 2 as I indulged in seduction games with others. I told them directly that I couldn't love, so I was not dishonest, but I viewed romance as conquests and power games.

[Animal]

When I integrate, I am conscious of objective standards beyond my emotions, although those standards are my own -- but I have more equanimity to parse them out. Automatically, I start explaining and upholding standards of decency - in others, not just in myself (which I always do). The integration to 2 is part of this however, and cannot be ignored --- I am more willing to involve myself with others needs, take on some emotional or physical caretaking of friends that need it, offering my things, my money, whatever to help friends in need etc -- but not in a desperate conquest way (which manifests more in romance)-- rather in a healthy balanced way, where there are standards and kindness. Basically, this is how I get beyond the "Deep Me-hole" that I usually dwell in.

[Tsenjin]

Typing Dr House is a bit like typing Dr Who imo.
The question is "which one ?".
That's a character who has been initially conceived as a synthesis of a sharpshooting Clint Eastwoodish curmudgeon and a Sherlock Holmes-ish genius. And who then got developped by a dozen of directors and producers, over the span of eight seasons.

As a result, he is quite untypable.
For example, he will be ENTPish or INTJish depending on which Fx polr will give the best punchline at a given moment.
And you're not safe from suddenly discovering he was a fluent chinese speaker, or a physic genius, all along. Because why not ?

I think the initial concept of the character was very close of Eclipsed proposed typing.
Paradoxically very attached, counterphobically non compliant. Because "Everybody lies".
In some episodes of the first seasons i could even see argument for 3w4 lead, actually.
Then he got more and more five-ish over the years, in part because of the actor's own fiveness.
He also became somewhat more 8ish, in part because some narrative escalation had to lead him to jail, for real.
But for most of the serie existence, he would still have to be at least twice attached , imo.

[Animal]

Patti Smith, a 548, was attached to Robert Mapplethorpe according to several interviews and articles about them. See what she has to say about it! Trent Reznor, a 5 core, attached to his wife and to women he wrote songs about on his early albums. My 5 ex chased me for up to 10 years after breakup! As someone who types without an attachment fix, I am quite emotional about the people I love, and I certaintly cant' just get over them overnight...and so on....

[Daeva]

Yep. 5's get obsessive.

[Animal]

Exactly. And also, my whole family is off-triangle aside from my brother, but we all have a supportive, ongoing relationship with each other, through thick and thin.
Attachment (in an unhealthy form especially) is more about your identity reflecting that of your family or other influences, to the point that you can't extrapolate 'you' from the outside influence. Rather than being about supportive networks or obsessions with people.