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Fiona Apple

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    Fiona Apple

    "Paper Bag"

    I was staring at the sky, just looking for a star
    To pray on, or wish on, or something like that
    I was having a sweet fix of a daydream of a boy
    Whose reality I knew, was a hopeless to be had
    But then the dove of hope began its downward slope
    And I believed for a moment that my chances
    Were approaching to be grabbed
    But as it came down near, so did a weary tear
    I thought it was a bird, but it was just a paper bag

    Hunger hurts, and I want him so bad, oh it kills
    'Cause I know I'm a mess he don't wanna clean up
    I got to fold 'cause these hands are too shaky to hold
    Hunger hurts, but starving works, when it costs too much to love

    And I went crazy again today, looking for a strand to climb
    Looking for a little hope
    Baby said he couldn't stay, wouldn't put his lips to mine,
    And a fail to kiss is a fail to cope
    I said, 'Honey, I don't feel so good, don't feel justified
    Come on put a little love here in my void,' he said
    'It's all in your head,' and I said, 'So's everything'
    But he didn't get it I thought he was a man
    But he was just a little boy

    Hunger hurts, and I want him so bad, oh it kills
    'Cause I know I'm a mess he don't wanna clean up
    I got to fold 'cause these hands are too shaky to hold
    Hunger hurts, but starving works, when it costs too much to love

    Hunger hurts, but I want him so bad, oh it kills
    'Cause I know I'm a mess he don't wanna clean up
    I got to fold 'cause these hands are too shaky to hold
    Hunger hurts, but starving works, when it costs too much to love

    Hunger hurts, but I want him so bad, oh it kills
    Because I know that I'm a mess that he don't wanna clean up
    I got to fold because these hands are just too shaky to hold
    Hunger hurts, but starving, it works, when it costs too much to love

    Hello Avarice!

    I will lay out my case in full soon, but I just had to get that out of my system.

    My current guess is 592 Sx.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Animal; 07-28-2020, 09:27 PM.

    Still seems more 7 to me, like this song makes me think of a 7 who has gotten disenchanted after coming down from a high.

    "Hunger hurts, but starving, it works, when it costs too much to love"

    ...Well, I don't know much about her/haven listened to her other than this and Criminal so I'd just wait for the full case, but song feels relatable in a way and doesn't really give me 5ish vibe.


    • Animal
      Animal commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree the song "Criminal," in and of itself, is more 7 - but 5s do have a line to 7. So having some 7ish themes and lyrics is part of identifying a 5. I typed her at 7 for a long time. So I thank you for this post because it reminds me that part of my case, when I have time to write something long, will include how I moved from 7 (and even considering 2 or 9, or 4) -- to 5.

    • Animal
      Animal commented
      Editing a comment
      I'd be curious, are you willing to make a typing thread? Obviously, I invite your input on any typing thread regardless of what your type is, and regardless if I agree on how you see your type. Typing celebs is a separate issue from being correctly typed or from us agreeing on your type. BUT! Since you brought up that you 'relate' to the lyrics, it's hard to answer that, being that your type has not been examined by the people here. I do see that you think a lot about what you relate to and why, and how things affect you, so it could actually be helpful in terms of 'forum dialogue' if we had a better handle on your type or at least, your reasons for typing in a particular way. If youre uncomfortable with video and pics, we can try to do it with words, though obviously vids and pics are helpful. And I still have your collages from enneatude fwiw.
      Let me know!

    Animal What I'm seeing in that song is the five absurd-ism, like she can't help laughing at herself and how petty her problems are.

    "I thought it was a bird, but it was just a paper bag"
    The day is done, and the darkness

    Falls from the wings of Night,

    As a feather is wafted downward

    From an eagle in his flight.

    I see the lights of the village

    Gleam through the rain and the mist,

    And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

    That my soul cannot resist:

    A feeling of sadness and longing,

    That is not akin to pain,

    And resembles sorrow only

    As the mist resembles the rain.


      Fiona Apple quotes, and why the 5 typing:

      "You can live your whole life in your brain and not experience what's around you. You go crazy that way. That's why I have to watch myself when I get isolated for too long."

      "I have a very steadfast tendency to parent myself, to monitor my development into the person I want to be. I try to keep the corruption minimal. And though I advocate learning from my mistakes as much as making mistakes, I also try and make sure my mistakes do not cost other people."
      This is the super-ego in type 5.

      "The way I feel about music is that there is no right and wrong; only true and false."

      "I'm incredibly impressed by people who organize to achieve a goal, and believe that they can make a difference and then go ahead and do just that. I think it's incredible."

      "If I respect myself and believe in what I'm doing, no one can touch me."

      "Sometimes interviews are fun and good conversations, but stuff like photo shoots and appearances at places where you have to meet a lot of people - I was never really made for this kind of stuff."

      "When you're surrounded by all these people, it can be even lonelier than when you're by yourself. You can be in a huge crowd, but if you don't feel like you can trust anybody or talk to anybody, you feel like you're really alone."

      "Our ancestors always thought of the worst thing that could happen, and that's why we're alive."

      "I feel like I'm 100 years old. I can't tell you what I did today. I can't tell you what I did for seven years. I can't tell you. It happens so seamlessly - I'm just floating along and seven years go by."
      Lol 9 fix.

      "But I honestly don't read critics. My dad reads absolutely everything ever written about me. He calls me up to read ecstatic reviews, but I always insist that I can't hear them. If you give value to the good reviews, you have to give value to the criticism."
      Mental avarice. The lie is: If you don't give weight to outside influence, you will not be affected by them.

      "In a sense it's a lot crazier when you're on the road and it's a lot less stable, but it's actually really healthy for me because it keeps me from isolating, which I tend to do a lot."

      "Because for whatever reason, even though I want to stay home all the time and be left alone, I want to tell the world who I am now."

      "You think you're looking at things all the time, but you're not looking at things, you're looking at what your brain is interpreting through light and color. And who knows what everybody else sees?"

      "I don't go on lunch dates with friends. I hear about people having dinner parties, but I never do that. I'm not really human."

      "When I was a kid - 10, 11, 12, 13 - the thing I wanted most in the world was a best friend. I wanted to be important to people; to have people that understood me. I wanted to just be close to somebody."
      "I was told so many times when I was a kid, 'I can't be friends with you, you're too intense, you're too sad all the time.' I really thought that when I made the first album that everyone would understand me, all the people who weren't my friends would become my friends."
      sound like Social instinct.

      "I used to get a shiver if I thought about holding balloons, because I was scared of floating away."
      5 + 9

      "I really don't think anything I do is a mistake. It could be if I didn't learn from it."
      Sleep on the Ceiling - Erosian Exile


      • Animal
        Animal commented
        Editing a comment
        Great quotes. She talks a lot about how she's an alien in isolation. Maybe Soc/Sx 5 is a good bet. I had been thinking Sx but this makes a lot more sense.

      • Daeva
        Daeva commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes. She's a hermit, but the lonely kind.
        Sx/So could be like this also.
        Last edited by Daeva; 05-03-2020, 03:12 PM.

      • Animal
        Animal commented
        Editing a comment
        The only other type I think is worth considering is four. But I'm still percolating on the long case I want to make. I have a lot of ideas but I need to wait til the moment they coalesce into something that makes sense in English.


      She's just so amazing! And even here, there are clips of her being extremely anxious, with big poppy eyes, talking about how she can't "human."


        After much ado between myself and Daeva (videos, pictures, writings etc)... we think 9 is a better type for her core.
        952 tritype.

        The "can't be human" stuff could still show up in a 9 core due to the tritype, but the fixation on wanting to be human would make more sense for a 9 lead than a 5.

        I don't know where to start explaining this, because we spend so much time talking back and forth. I'll just use some examples. In this video she is 'languidly lounging' and doing things 'just because she can.' She doesn't know why she does it, she just does. But it's "bad." (Gut core judgment/ focus on justice.) She knows she's committing an injustice, slothfully, because she can. But she's just too lazy not to do it. Or even to understand why she's doing it.

        Her voice is deep, sensual, gutty...

        Her take on John Lennon's "across the universe" is a strong mix of 5 and 9...

        Upon first few analyses, I thought this was 5ish but actually, the main theme is her 'tuning it out.' This is what she shows in the video.

        Here, her identity just merges casually with the next guy. There's no boundary between her singing or him singing. And it's all just so very funny.

        Also this song is a big saga-ramble.


        any protests? Thoughts?


          SpiritoftheGael Whatuthink? Do you think 9 lead is ok and 952 tritype?


            Criminal comes across as more intentionally devious to me, though she feels "guilty" about it. But she also seems excited by the prospect of being punished. It actually seems 6ish as they have a thing for punishment, going with fear+superego not wanting to get into trouble. Yet, at the same time...
            Well, 9 has a line to 6 so perhaps there's a connection there. Still she seems more headish to me.

            No comment on the other two songs though, other than that Across the Universe song is one of the worst things I've ever heard.


              Not entirely sure how to interpret that "Not About Love" song but it doesn't really feel merge-y to me. It feels discordant. I think the reason he's acting like her ventriloquist doll is because this is an imagined conversation in her head. And I don't find 9 to be the only type who gets frustrated with discordance.

              Although her music feels very "deflated" to me which is arguably 9ish but I'm not sure about that because I often hear that 9s can be drawn to more intense heavy music because it gives them a safe outlet for their anger.

              Mainly there's all this frustration constantly oozing out from her. My first guess for her was type 4 but now that I understand "vibes" a bit more than I did back then she does seem quite heady-ish. But there's also all this frustration constantly oozing out from her. So then 7 seems like the type that would make sense for her because she seems like head+frustration. With 6-wing obviously. The lines to 1 and 5 also make sense.


                Originally posted by Daeva View Post
                "I have a very steadfast tendency to parent myself, to monitor my development into the person I want to be. I try to keep the corruption minimal. And though I advocate learning from my mistakes as much as making mistakes, I also try and make sure my mistakes do not cost other people."
                This is the super-ego in type 5.
                So it seems you have moved away from 5 by now, but I'm still wondering why specifically is that 5?


                  (Also I was thinking about Björk earlier, a 9 with 5-fix... and she actually feels like an alien, compared to Fiona for all she says about feeling like she can't be human... Although yes, I can believe that Fiona feels out of place. Discordant. But there's still something more human about her. Could potentially be a 5w4 vs 5w6 difference, but I dunno man.)

                  (And while Björk has that alienness to her, she also seems to be more connected to the flow of something on a deep somatic level. Something I don't get from Fiona which adds to the impression of her as a head-type rather than gut. Now I'm aware that typing-by comparison can be problematic because people are always different for many reasons, but I thought it was an interesting contrast.)
                  Last edited by [redacted]; 07-04-2020, 06:11 AM.


                  • Animal
                    Animal commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Youre right, compared to Bjork who I see as 952, Fiona is very different. I said more below.

                  Alien stills works with 9. I think of alien as a conceptual human experience taking on a number of flavors (experiences, etc). With 9 the implication is of a physical alienation (go figure), not so mental. As though, the clear-headed, sober acquiescence of moving away, staving off a mental insecurity...... that line to 6. This we know as a 9 hallmark itself, their peacemaking, so often conflated into actual peacemaking, when in fact it's just their inner peacemaking, now requiring hard dogma...... 'people suck' mantras, whatever. I know people just like this. Really smart, eccentric people, but nevertheless still essential 9.

                  I think I'm still friends with a counter-culture type 5 female, we don't talk much these days, but she was my lab partner all through college. She's an alien too, but we just can't overlap with very much, mentally. Her ideas are really alien to me, insofar as their being disconnected, unrealistic. Life should at least be realistic! I'd check in with her maybe once a year, having a soft spot for her, although she's never maintained much of a connection to me, accept for the one time she was fishing for an employment lead. Her gestalt was an impersonal nature, someone that you might like, but would never really emotionally invest much into in spite of having such a close working relationship over a long period. She's a good example of the type of person that could leave me feeling emotionally alienated.
                  Last edited by Full_fathom; 07-05-2020, 04:55 PM.


                  • [redacted]
                    [redacted] commented
                    Editing a comment
                    perhaps withdrawn types in general have a tendency to give off an "alien" feel (and maybe "alien" is a bad word) because they are so... inaccessible (don't know how else to put it)
                    but basically I don't get that from fiona

                  • [redacted]
                    [redacted] commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I mean, Fiona has this more "relatable" feel to her. Of course, what's actually relatable or not is subjective, and for someone with more of a connection to 5w4, Björk might be more the relatable one.
                    But when I say Fiona is relatable... I'm not necessarily that much like her in reality either.
                    But she feels easier to relate to because she's a relatable gal. =P 6/7-space.

                  redacted, I was just being theoretical and I'm happy to see that you picked up on the withdrawn thing. It sorta ended up as an unintentional anecdote. Be that as it may, I agree with you that Ms. Apple is very relatable or projecting such, like the 6 with the NF and a pinch of Sx.
                  Last edited by Full_fathom; 07-07-2020, 07:35 PM.


                    How would you guys feel about a 974 typing for her?

                    I understand what you're saying, [redacted] - about how she doesn't feel quite like an "alien" like Björk. There is still something "out of place" about her, but it's not "emotionally alienating" like Full_fathom described his five friend.

                    She strikes me as a 9 core because she looks tired, she is 'droopy' in her posture, she describes herself as lazy quite often, and she seems to have a withdrawn core. I mistook it for five because I was thinking "head energy, plus withdrawn energy." But I'm wondering now, is it really head energy? Wouldn't a 974 in any order be very neurotic?

                    I had typed her as 479 tritype for many years, usually assuming she was 7 lead... but she just is not as aggressive as a 7 lead. She is not proactive either. She is terrified of people and has anxiety, but she is also traumatized. Her energy, however, is not sixish. There's no classic six lead 'defensiveness' or 'back and forth' or 'can I really trust you?' Sixes often squint and have boxy posture, like they're protecting their chest area and checking you out, sizing you up. She feels too... open. Emotionally available. Which of course, rules out 5. Pardon my past mistakes.

                    The four lead typing is popular for her, but where is the burning hot envy? It is common for 9 leads to show tremendous sadness in their eyes, to droop, to be very viscerally present in their emotions on the one hand, and sort of 'look tired' on the other. This fits Fiona. Her eyes are half closed, her posture is lazy and 'falls into' the world, she has great flow. Her voice 'falls into' the song. It isn't core reactive... she is just.. flowing.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    The 4-7 combination in the tritype could account for the frustration and the taste of envy that sometimes pops up in her songs, but it doesn't seem to be the driver. At core, she's more silly, and more embodied. There is no huge battle to express her identity, no "home" that she was cut off from, nor the hot reactive fire you get with some fours like Maria Callas. Fiona is part of the Earth, but she is a magic fairy creature. A 7 fix may feel like "a lot of head energy" even on someone who isn't a 7 lead. Partly she feels like she's exploding out of her skin (4-7 combo) but still, there's something wholesome about her. And.. relatable. (Not to me specifically, but in general, like redacted pointed out.)

                    I think 974 may be a good bet. How does that sound to you all?


                      My primary issue with FA is her head type-ish nihilism. "I've been a bad, bad girl"? That's not an accident, it's a sardonic commentary. How superego. To wit, 4 is already post-modern bad, and 9 could never see it anyway.....

                      Let me know the way
                      Before there's hell to pay
                      Give me room to lay the law and let me go
                      I've got to make a play
                      To make my lover stay
                      So what would an angel say
                      The devil wants to know

                      That's a few 90-degree angles - it's got several 6 instincts at 'play'. Love possession (security), opportunity, guidance, authority, loyalties. God..... and um, the Devil?

                      I could be accused of cherry picking, but I don't know where else to go with it
                      Last edited by Full_fathom; 07-12-2020, 07:52 PM.


                      • Animal
                        Animal commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I used to consider six lead for her.. but she is not 'defended' enough. There's something psychologically naked about her. This would usually be four or nine. My brief venture into five was because I was thinking about those fives who are so terrified that they seem like open nerve endings.

                      • Animal
                        Animal commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Sixes tend to have something tough about them. Their posture is 'boxer'ish. Her lyrics are very sixish the more I listen with type six in mind. So I am definitely thinking six is in the tritype, and likely her second fix. But for someone so anxious, she doesn't have the defensiveness that characterizes six... let alone a traumatized six. Her emotions are 'right there.'

                        I think it has to be a withdrawn core. She's so shy, such a recluse- and lives in her own inner world of emotions and ideas. But she doesn't have great defenses to deal with the world and keep herself secure from possible intruders like a six would.

                        This is why I'm opening up to my ORIGINAL typing of her which was four. In the past I have typed her at 4, then 7 and then 6. Then only on this thread I considered 5 or 9.

                        But now that I'm refining my view on what is and isn't four (which I have been doing for years, but I feel I've made major headway with some recent epiphanies) - I'm thinking she may be one of those anxious, emotionally naked triple-doubt fours, nakedly spilling her shame and unfulfilled desires into the songs, but very openly nervous around people.

                      • Full_fathom
                        Full_fathom commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Fiona Apple is a 'worthwhile' specimen certainly, I'll see if I can't devote some more time to her and have more to say in the future.