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    #1

    Open Borders

    So I've been thinking about the concept of open borders for a while, and I am starting to think it is a more natural system. In the US, our current problem is that both the Democrats and Republicans don't want open borders, because it means they can get as much cheap slave labor as they want. They are undermining the wage market for everyone, which obviously hurts everyone. Also, I just want to add that some people have conflated open borders wrongly with socialism, because they don't understand what that means. Actually open borders can work very well with a free market capitalist system. By the way, open borders was essentially the start of the US. When you leave people to move freely around, they tend to go where the jobs are at. This means that if too many people concentrate in one area, if the jobs disappear, people move. This is not what is happening in the US right now. Instead more and more people are smashing into certain cities and instead of moving, they are trying to impose all sorts of regulations to control for the fact that there aren't enough jobs/ good paying jobs to go around. Obviously this hasn't been working out at all. Less regulations and more movement tends to be a better way to go.

    Also I will add, that open borders doesn't have to be complete movement. Obviously the US has many enemies and shouldn't just let anyone in. Yes, we should have a border wall. Yes, we should have border security to screen people. If someone is engaging in criminal activity they should not be allowed in i.e. anyone involved with the drug trade. Yes, those people should be deported. We still need ICE. However, for everyone else, there is no reason to not more readily hand out work visas. I think we can do a definite improvement, if we allow the majority of people to have a work visa once they have been screened for criminal activity. And then they will be competing for jobs at the same wages as everyone else, which means US citizens will not be looked over for people who can be paid illegal wages. If they can't find jobs in the US then I guess tough luck. They'll have to go else where. What we absolutely should NOT do however, is prop these people up with welfare, since that ruins the entire concept behind free movement. They will not be enticed to go elsewhere where the jobs are.

    Thoughts anyone? These are just my musings about the topic.
    The day is done, and the darkness

    Falls from the wings of Night,

    As a feather is wafted downward

    From an eagle in his flight.


    I see the lights of the village

    Gleam through the rain and the mist,

    And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

    That my soul cannot resist:


    A feeling of sadness and longing,

    That is not akin to pain,

    And resembles sorrow only

    As the mist resembles the rain.
    Tags: None
    • 2 likes
    #2
    Wow Arya - very interesting perspective.

    As someone who married an immigrant from Belgium, in an honest, loving soulmate marriage, it is frustrating that we have to suffer so many ridiculous regulations and costs. We have spent up to $10k on his process and it's not even over yet. He's in school and working, and we've been married since 2016, but he has spent all but 3 months here since Aug 2015. Why, toward the end of 2019, are we still burdened with these costs and regulations?

    What pisses me off is that he and I are paying so much money for this, and struggling to live an honest life. Meanwhile the government won't give us ANY support, like food stamps etc, because I am his sponsor and thus I'm not allowed to accept any government help. I have a chronic illness which the government believes doesn't exist, and it's hard for me to work at all - let alone, work enough to pay 50k a year for medical bills alone, plus my regular costs. So I already was struggling to get any help and wasn't allowed to go on disability because my illness supposedly isn't real. Obamacare made it harder, because Ocare regulations cost so much to insurance companies that my insurance closed down, then my new insurance closed down; then the one that stayed open dropped my medications one at a time. So I ended up sicker. I can't go on Medicare now because we need our joined salary to be just above the poverty line in order for Daeva to stay in America with me as his sponsor.

    The first three years he was here, there were absolutely no options for him to get healthcare. None! There were options to immigrants who came for sanctuary and for temporary travelers, but not for greencard holders. We would have had to buy insurance privately, which we couldn't afford, so he didn't have insurance and his medical stuff went downhill. Finally after Trump made some changes, we were able to get insurance for both of us even with being just above the poverty line and him being a greencard holder. So this is the mess we are dealing with.

    And meanwhile, illegal immigrants just barge in and get free care, which we pay for with our tax money?!!!!!!!!!!

    I cannot possibly express the amount of rage I would have about this if I considered myself a citizen of Earth. Luckily I know it's not my species so I don't have to explode in a rage every day.

    No really.. this is unacceptable. It definitely has to be easier for legal immigrants and harder for illegal immigrants and criminals. Note that I am not suggesting all illegal immigrants are bad people (though technically they are criminals since they crossed the border illegally), or that citizens can't also be criminals. I'm just agreeing with your sentiment that immigrants should be checked for criminal history etc.

    I agree with your overall model for how society could be improved, but those improvements would have to happen before we let illegal immigrants swarm in and suck up our tax money while actual citizens are abandoned by the government. Trump's election has saved us both from a lot of trouble that Obama's had caused, however. We can now get state insurance for $20 a month each. But the huge immigration costs remain.
    • 1 like

    Comment

      #3
      Volcana ideally if we moved to a system like this, illegals would be deported immediately. They could go through the proper channel afterwards if they so wish. Also, ideally the costs would go down if people were just automatically granted a work visa so long as they passed criminal screening. Currently, the administrative costs are so much higher. We'd still have the costs of screening criminal activity, but I'm pretty sure that would still be less paperwork and bullshit than we currently have. Also, in my opinion, anyone working in the US with a work visa should be allowed whatever health care everyone else is getting, either through their job or paid for by themselves. Illegal immigrants should not get free health care for sure. Definitely not. Any non criminal can enter but ONLY through the work visa channel, which should be easy to apply for. I'm guessing it would still take some time to do the screening, but I would hope it would only take several months to a year if they were less busy chasing down illegals etc. There would undoubtedly be less if people could easily apply to the program.
      The day is done, and the darkness

      Falls from the wings of Night,

      As a feather is wafted downward

      From an eagle in his flight.


      I see the lights of the village

      Gleam through the rain and the mist,

      And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

      That my soul cannot resist:


      A feeling of sadness and longing,

      That is not akin to pain,

      And resembles sorrow only

      As the mist resembles the rain.
      • 1 like

      Comment

        #4
        Arya That makes a lot of sense and actually, when you phrase it that way, it's very similar (essentially) to arguments I have made at gatherings where everyone was yelling about immigrants. I love how well you thought it out. I'm curious to hear from people who disagree with this and why.
        • 1 like

        Comment

          #5
          Volcana it would also hopefully cut down on people swamping our ports of entry. For instance, I would imagine you would apply in your own country and wait there till you got accepted. Hopefully, you'd just get your visa at that point and then at that point you'd figure out how to travel to the ports of entry. Once you show up, you just show your visa and you get let on through. It would cut down on the delays immensely. I'm guessing asylum might still have to be a thing for people in immediate danger who can't just sit and wait to be screened. There are little details that would have to be worked out, but it should be very easy for most people to apply and not take years to get approved would be the hope.
          The day is done, and the darkness

          Falls from the wings of Night,

          As a feather is wafted downward

          From an eagle in his flight.


          I see the lights of the village

          Gleam through the rain and the mist,

          And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

          That my soul cannot resist:


          A feeling of sadness and longing,

          That is not akin to pain,

          And resembles sorrow only

          As the mist resembles the rain.
          • 1 like

          Comment

            #6
            Actually, I just thought of one argument for "why not," though I don't feel prepared to justify it in full - others probably have more knowledge about this.

            But in most other countries they expect immigrants to assimilate. Here we have a 'do your own religion' policy, which I love, but then we are forced to accommodate groups which comprise very small segments of the population. For instance is it true that people are teaching Muslim prayers in public American schools? Or is that propaganda? (I haven't seen it myself, and I don't trust the news - that's why I ask.) I do believe honest Muslims should be allowed in, but they should be expected to follow the same basic laws as everyone else, period.

            I'm not pinpointing Muslims or any other particular group here, but more as a general sentiment - perhaps there should be some standards for assimilation so that outside cultures don't come in making a lot of noise about how we should change everything for them, and then we comply at the cost of losing basic cultural values. (We also need to stop going to their countries and demanding they change for US, which is half the problem.) What do you think about this?

            I mean, we mustn't take our country's basic liberties for granted. The LGBT community has worked hard to earn the right to marry; we don't want to go back to punishing them ho like some countries do. We mustn't take for granted that we are allowed to walk shirtless at the beach, or wear a bikini. Etc.
            Last edited by Animal; 11-02-2019, 05:01 PM.
            • 1 like

            Comment

              #7
              Volcana My anger with Muslims being allowed to pray in schools is that Christians are often barred from showing their beliefs simultaneously. I believe anyone can do whatever prayer they want. The schools are toxic zones anyways, so that's an entirely different problem. The public schools are mostly areas where people lose rights It is a completely erroneous argument to say there is separation of church and state, therefore students shouldn't be allowed to air their beliefs in school. No, private citizens should be allowed their beliefs and so should teachers. The state should not be able to force a teacher to air a certain view, but stopping them from airing their view is taking away their rights as citizens. However, I am not saying people shouldn't be expected to assimilate. The thing is is that legal people will assimilate much easier because they will have the opportunity to work the same jobs alongside other Americans rather than working slave wage jobs where they are only surrounded by people like them.
              The day is done, and the darkness

              Falls from the wings of Night,

              As a feather is wafted downward

              From an eagle in his flight.


              I see the lights of the village

              Gleam through the rain and the mist,

              And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

              That my soul cannot resist:


              A feeling of sadness and longing,

              That is not akin to pain,

              And resembles sorrow only

              As the mist resembles the rain.
              • 1 like

              Comment

                #8
                Volcana Honestly I think the fact that they have taken away a teacher's right to air their views is a HUGE violation of separation of church and state. The state is imposing what views they are allowed to say/not say. "Church" doesn't even have to mean specifically what we think of as religion. To me the idea behind all of it was to stop the state from saying what ideas are allowed to be said. That got ruined long ago
                The day is done, and the darkness

                Falls from the wings of Night,

                As a feather is wafted downward

                From an eagle in his flight.


                I see the lights of the village

                Gleam through the rain and the mist,

                And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

                That my soul cannot resist:


                A feeling of sadness and longing,

                That is not akin to pain,

                And resembles sorrow only

                As the mist resembles the rain.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Arya - this is basically my problem with the dialogue I hear going on now. Obviously these are not intended as nuanced arguments, but this is my impression of the very broad, general dialogue:

                  The Right says: We must return to the constitution. Freedom of religion -- but never forget that the nation was founded on Christian principles, so this is a Christian nation. And also your tax money will be used to support religious institutions like the Church whether you like it or not. Oh and forget the early immigration policies in the constitution - we don't want those people.

                  The Left says: Muslims must have freedom to express their views in schools or in public, but not Christians, as Christians are sexist bigots. We're feminist, pro choice and pro LGBT, but we will turn a blind eye to extremists who force women to cover up against their will, throw gas on their face and throw homosexuals off rooftops - provided they're Muslim and not Christian.
                  Last edited by Animal; 11-02-2019, 04:43 PM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Volcana I've honestly never heard a Christian say that muslims shouldn't be allowed to pray. Most of them are just pissed that they get suspended from school for bringing a Bible to school: https://www.theblaze.com/news/2011/0...ool-files-suit
                    The day is done, and the darkness

                    Falls from the wings of Night,

                    As a feather is wafted downward

                    From an eagle in his flight.


                    I see the lights of the village

                    Gleam through the rain and the mist,

                    And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

                    That my soul cannot resist:


                    A feeling of sadness and longing,

                    That is not akin to pain,

                    And resembles sorrow only

                    As the mist resembles the rain.
                    • 1 like

                    Comment

                    • Animal
                      #10.1
                      Animal commented
                      11-02-2019, 04:38 PM
                      Editing a comment
                      Oh oops, I had rephrased that comment in a quick edit and you responded to the original which was badly phrased on my part.
                    #11
                    Volcana Just to add I've never heard a Christian say that, but I do think what is probably happening is that Muslim students sometimes end up in schools where the dominant faith is Christianity and kids are mean bullies and they undoubtedly get bullied and feel like they don't belong. I have no doubts that that happens. I'm sure some of the parents snub them too.
                    The day is done, and the darkness

                    Falls from the wings of Night,

                    As a feather is wafted downward

                    From an eagle in his flight.


                    I see the lights of the village

                    Gleam through the rain and the mist,

                    And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

                    That my soul cannot resist:


                    A feeling of sadness and longing,

                    That is not akin to pain,

                    And resembles sorrow only

                    As the mist resembles the rain.
                    • 1 like

                    Comment

                    • Animal
                      #11.1
                      Animal commented
                      11-02-2019, 04:35 PM
                      Editing a comment
                      Ugh. Yeah.
                    #12
                    Originally posted by Arya View Post
                    Volcana I've honestly never heard a Christian say that muslims shouldn't be allowed to pray. Most of them are just pissed that they get suspended from school for bringing a Bible to school: https://www.theblaze.com/news/2011/0...ool-files-suit
                    I didn't mean "not allowed to pray." I meant not having Muslim prayer introduced to young children who are entering public school, as part of their cirriculum. I've read in many places that this is happening, and I have to learn more to find out if it's true. That's what the problem is that I've heard people complaining about, not them praying on their own.
                    • 1 like

                    Comment

                    • SpiritoftheGael
                      #12.1
                      SpiritoftheGael commented
                      11-02-2019, 04:49 PM
                      Editing a comment
                      Also by the way, I'm fine with religious studies, but I think they should leave it at discussing the religions. Having religious ceremonies in class for the purpose of just showing it is offensive to that religion and takes away students freedoms. I mean it kind of makes a mockery of the religion because people take the meanings very seriously. It would be like giving communion in class just to show what it's like. I find that to be an offensive idea personally.
                    • Animal
                      #12.2
                      Animal commented
                      11-02-2019, 04:50 PM
                      Editing a comment
                      Completely agree.
                    #13
                    Volcana Yes, that has been happening since the 80s. My dad said his religious studies teacher tried to force him to take part in some other religion's prayer in school back then. I think it might have been Hinduism or something. I don't remember. He ended up getting out of it by telling her he had freedom of religion, but he had to fight for it. It's obviously wrong to force anyone to take part in a religious ceremony of any kind.
                    The day is done, and the darkness

                    Falls from the wings of Night,

                    As a feather is wafted downward

                    From an eagle in his flight.


                    I see the lights of the village

                    Gleam through the rain and the mist,

                    And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me

                    That my soul cannot resist:


                    A feeling of sadness and longing,

                    That is not akin to pain,

                    And resembles sorrow only

                    As the mist resembles the rain.
                    • 1 like

                    Comment

                      #14
                      Yup. Not to mention, Muslim citizens would have every right to be pissed off if their tax money is being spent on supporting churches while their mosques are being ignored. So then, religions pile on religions and all citizens are required to spend tax money to support them. Really no religion should benefit from my tax money considering I have my own religion which I'm very serious about, and it's contrary to the central beliefs of both Christians and Muslims.
                      • 1 like

                      Comment

                      • SpiritoftheGael
                        #14.1
                        SpiritoftheGael commented
                        11-02-2019, 04:57 PM
                        Editing a comment
                        Yeah agreed. Churches should not receive tax write offs or tax money. I guess maybe in specific cases it might be ok to give them tax money for specific uses, but in general I'd say it's a bad idea.
                      #15
                      • 2 likes

                      Comment

                      • Animal
                        #15.1
                        Animal commented
                        11-05-2019, 09:50 PM
                        Editing a comment
                        I agree with all of this. The last paragraph is a major concern too which people rarely talk about, and I think it's important.
                      • SpiritoftheGael
                        #15.2
                        SpiritoftheGael commented
                        11-05-2019, 10:02 PM
                        Editing a comment
                        Yeah I don't really have a problem with mandatory assimilation. I know South Korea does that with refugees arriving from North Korea, which makes sense. But yeah, I think probably the health care system just needs to be fixed.
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