war on cartels in Mexico

[SpiritoftheGael]

What are everyone's thoughts on this? Trump just offered to wage war on the cartels on Mexico if they want after the cartels just brutally killed families with children. I doubt the Mexican president will accept the offer however. Do you think the US should get involved? I tend to say no; however, Mexico is right on our border and the cartels have been causing us problems for years and we spend tons of money dealing with them.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/05/trum...g-cartels.html

[ledyanoy]

[SpiritoftheGael]

ledyanoy I mostly agree with you in general. And yeah, it's possible they want the rest. Honestly I'm not even sure, at least when it comes to Trump. This might just be theater on his part to remind everyone why the wall is needed. My other problem is if we're going to have to take care of everyone's citizens and refugees anyways, then why shouldn't we just make those countries ours? Why should we have to take care of everyone but not get the resources that come along with that? I strongly dislike how the UN expects the US to step in and take in everyone's citizens for them, as well as somehow deal with the cartel from without.

[Animal]

YESSSS. THIS. "if we're going to have to take care of everyone's citizens and refugees anyways, then why shouldn't we just make those countries ours? Why should we have to take care of everyone but not get the resources that come along with that? I strongly dislike how the UN expects the US to step in and take in everyone's citizens for them, as well as somehow deal with the cartel from without." YES. EXACTLY.

[ledyanoy]

ledyanoy I mostly agree with you in general. And yeah, it's possible they want the rest. Honestly I'm not even sure, at least when it comes to Trump.

This might just be theater on his part to remind everyone why the wall is needed.

My other problem is if we're going to have to take care of everyone's citizens and refugees anyways, then why shouldn't we just make those countries ours? Why should we have to take care of everyone but not get the resources that come along with that?

That is a huge ball of wax to sort out. Will have to come back to this.

I strongly dislike how the UN expects the US to step in and take in everyone's citizens for them, as well as somehow deal with the cartel from without.

[SpiritoftheGael]

ledyanoy Just some other thoughts I have at the moment. I mostly say yeah yeah whatever to the Mexican president. It's pretty obvious that Mexico has no intentions of dealing with the cartel and hasn't for years. Trump may be full of bullshit but Mexico doesn't get a pass either. I'll take that back if I see evidence that they actually try to clean up the problem but I'm not holding my breath, which leads me to the question of how should the US deal with it without directly intervening? I actually don't mind having a wall at all with other military equipment etc if it helps slows the bleeding a bit. I don't know if you saw my post about open borders, but I talked a bit about how the US could have an open border system but also probably should have a wall, ICE, etc. I'm interested in your thoughts about that too if you want to look.

[ledyanoy]

Arya

[ledyanoy]

[ledyanoy]

[SpiritoftheGael]

ledyanoy Oh I 100% agree that the US needs to clean itself up. I'm getting more and more upset with what's been happening. California has been having constant power outages in order to avoid fires, mainly because they haven't updated their infrastructure in years. PG & E is saying there will be power outages in the state for the next ten years, because that's how long it's going to take them to update everything. My friend Sarah grew up in parts of Mexico and said power outages like that were common, so basically we're devolving to the level of Mexico. And people are going to die, because they can't use their medical equipment because they suddenly shut the power off. I was just in California a couple weeks ago for a job interview and the west side in LA set on fire while I was there and when I drove back to the LA airport I could see the scorched hills and smoke still rising. There were helicopters dumping water on it still. Crazy. I was like do I even want a job in this state? I'm pretty wary about moving anywhere there, since everything is devolving just so badly.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Cities definitely have a max size where it's just unfeasible to grow further. Resources are finite after all. This is why I don't really like how we are incentivizing people to stay rather than leave with welfare. I mean I could see offering people money to help them relocate to where they can find a job. That might make sense. Sometimes people don't have enough money to even get out so maybe helping them find a job else where and giving them initial expenses would cost less overall

[Animal]

The problem is you make more money from welfare than you make working - plus you get better health benefits. For people like single mothers, working isn't viable with kids and they really need the benefits. So why work? I've heard this story directly from mothers who really WANTED to work, but decided it wasn't fair to their kids. Like, working was a personal fantasy but they needed to look out for the family financially and pragmatically, so they just went back on welfare.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Yeah I agree. Family break down is another issue causing huge huge problems in cities. But there would still be some people you could incentivize to move with a bit of help I think. The problem is that a lot of single moms are in minority communities, so you'd just be left with these neighborhoods of impoverished minorities. I don't know how to fix that.

[Animal]

Arya All I have to say is you are f**king brilliant. . I mean, you're both brilliant in general! But I agree SO MUCH with these sentiments.

If we're going to have to take care of everyone's citizens and refugees anyways, then why shouldn't we just make those countries ours? Why should we have to take care of everyone but not get the resources that come along with that? I strongly dislike how the UN expects the US to step in and take in everyone's citizens for them, as well as somehow deal with the cartel from without.

I'll take that back if I see evidence that they actually try to clean up the problem but I'm not holding my breath, which leads me to the question of how should the US deal with it without directly intervening?

People just love to hate on America while also having unrealistic expectations. Most countries are much harsher about borders. Canada sure is. Many of the countries pressuring us to take everyone in are also enforcing strong border policies. Those that aren't are being overrun with rape and crime. Jews are the canary in the colemine in Europe and they have already (in the past decade) been forced out of several countries due to anti-semitic crime, but nobody wants Israel to exist either.. so where are they supposed to go? To me the anti-America "take the Mexicans in , indiscriminately - but don't pressure them to change their violent culture even as it ruins yours" sentiment is baseless until someone comes up with a viable solution for something we should do to preserve our own safety and protect ourselves from cartels. (Note that many Mexicans who aren't violent, come here to escape from that horrible life TOO. So why should we welcome it here with open arms?)

Even here in my NYC suburb, I can no longer walk down the street by myself at night, in an ankle-length thick coat. I used to walk several miles home by myself in short shorts, and nobody bothered me. Any time I'm by myself at night there are guys following me in their car, yelling in Spanish, parking and beeping at me... it's scary. This should not be happening anywhere let alone in a middle class neighborhood.

[ledyanoy]

https://globalnews.ca/news/4188268/f...egal-migrants/

[Animal]

I think Arya is right that if a country's immigrants become "our problem" then we have every right to protect ourselves. If tons of refugees are coming here, we have the right to go straight to the core of the issue, which is their home country. That's just how I see things. Maybe I'm a tyrant.
That said I'm definitely not a fan of bombing civilians and tearing countries apart. Targeted search, using intelligence to hone in on the real problem and go after it - while protecting innocents - is key. Maybe we could invest some money in building those societies back up and then pull out, but in exchange, just stop taking refugees. I don't know, but either way, "Just take the refugees and leave us alone" is wrong. Those countries are passive aggressively waging war.

[SpiritoftheGael]

Yeah this is something I agree with. It is passive aggressive war fare when our borders are essentially being stormed by migrants to the point that we've even had several mobs of guys try to storm across illegally. And then they cry and sob over the evil US tear gassing them. Very passive aggressive and ridiculous.

[Daeva]

I see only one solution: the USA gifts California to Mexico.

[SpiritoftheGael]

But people aren't reasonable. haha. After I get a job, I'm going to buy several acres of land and put a house on it with solar panels, a generator, a private well, and a moat with alligators and machine guns. You guys can join me if you want. Everyone else can be stupid.

[ledyanoy]

Arya

[Animal]

I want to join!!! Seriously! That's my life dream, to have a lot of acres of land shared among a small group of very close friends (tribe), all with separate houses. And as a group, be as independent from the gov as possible (generator, food etc) - and share the responsibility, rather than just work for money and then pay for all food. I do like working but I also like having some autonomy.