Announcement

**Animal** · 01-24-2020, 03:45 PM

FOUR IS A REACTIVE TYPE
4, 6, and 8 are all reactive types. They can all make a loud show. The wilting, shy, sighing flower who RH describes as a "four" was heavily attachment-based. People with heavy 3, 6, and 9, among other types (commonly 7 and 2), may relate to the description because they think that's how they feel INSIDE, even if they hide it. They may very well be a strong person, with strong actions and accomplishments, but they're relating to a description of what they think is going on "deep down." Because this is what RH describes. But for an actual four, the drama is right at the surface. The reactivity and 'push for the truth' (like 6 and 8) is palpable. It's just, the four's truth is the one inside them.

INTERIORIZED IMAGE
The thing you see, as an image, is the four's INTERIORIZED self-mythology and drama. Interiorized image is about them having a whole personal inner identity that leaks into their every action and surfaces in their image. It isn't hidden behind layers of callousness. They may, of course, keep their 'personal origin story' ITSELF hidden, and just show bits of it through emblems, jewelry, nuanced words, art etc. It doesn't always have to be revealed explicitly in words, but the outer image is constructed to display their interiorized image the way they choose to display it, and the inner emotions 'leak through' moment to moment.

FRUSTRATION TYPE
Overall, a four's envy manifests as a constant desiring of what is just out of reach, a heaven, a utopia they were exiled from, a fall from grace. There's a burning desire to express this perfect utopia and the exile from it, and also a sense that the utopia might want them if only they could earn it back. The reason four is a frustration type is because they can never communicate this 'origin story' inside them perfectly. They can never quite reach that ideal image, which would be an accurate, honest representation (through their looks, their art, their job, whatever) --- of what is deep inside them. The story inside is much more real to them than Earth. Most of the stuff going on outside their inner world doesn't "REALLY" exist to them - it is mundane, incidental and irrelevant to their sense of who they are and where they came from. They can wear the clothes, get the money, marry the monarch, whatever - but it's all removed from their sense of self. The inner identity is unique, special, superior, meaningful - whether others see it or not. But there is always an impulse to embody and communicate it, and with the line to 1, there's a pointed effort to carefully and perfectly construct that communication, regardless of which medium they use (anything from clothes to politics to art).

FOURS DON'T NECESSARILY HATE THEMSELVES.
They might think they'd be just fine if only they seduced that perfect person, finished that brilliant masterpiece, or made their way back to their home planet.

FOURS ARE HIGHLY OPINIONATED
Fours are opinionated and likely to express it. They are also highly specific about what they want and what they believe. Welcome to hyper-individualism.

FOURS DON'T HAVE TO BE SHY! SELF-CONSCIOUS DOES NOT MEAN SHY!
I'm not surprised that so many people we identified as FOUR have shown up as SeFi over at CT, typed by Auburn. Four is not necessarily SHY, but they do have an automatic sensual relationship with beauty, color, music, the flow, etc (Se). It's not so much about Fi which is JUDGEMENT - the four communicates what IS, with all its brokenness, and that inspires the four's aesthetic. The ethics and judgements (Fi) are secondary.

FOURS OFTEN LOOK LIKE THEY'RE JUMPING OUT OF THEIR SKIN
The shame is palpable, and their insides burst out of them. See Milo Yiannopolus, Leonard Cohen, Richard Ayoade, Maria Callas etc.

A FOUR'S EVERY EMOTION SHOWS ON THEIR FACE MOMENT TO MOMENT
You may say "mine too!" But really. Compare yourself to the jumping out of their skin people. You're probably more... "dignified" and mirroring the situation, and less "raw" and "interiorized expression" in this way. It's in the eyes. A four may be classy, nuanced, stylish - but there's no getting away from the constant churning of emotional display. So those people claiming that SP 4s are stoic.... they're describing a 9 (without a four fix).

FOURS ARE DISEMBODIED BUT "WILTING" REQUIRES OTHER FACTORS
They may be pathetic, self-deprecating, whiny, crying, 'special exception,' immature, but they are not wilting unless there are other factors like maybe 459. The type that is known as 'frail' physically is 5. The type that gives up and shrugs is 9. Four longs for what they can't have, and that thing they long for is more real than whatever is in front of them. Their body is not a 'body' - it's a canvas upon which to reveal their interiorized image. But this has nothing to do with 'giving up,' which is more 9. A four will chase their ideals until they die, and if they choose to commit suicide, that choice is THEIRS, a conscious decision, and also an art unto itself. Death is art. To the four, it's not giving up, it's transcending and having more claim on their own trajectory, their own life "performance."

FOURS OVER-COMPENSATE FOR THEIR SUFFERING AND SHAME
This varies from four to four, but Sp four especially will have the 'bug eyes' because of the PUSH to PREVAIL over the suffering. Other types of fours overcompensate in different ways - with Milo (Social lead) I'd go with competitive elitism, with Sx fours like Scarlett O'hara (fictional) it's through extravagant beauty and excessive seduction, and the sense that she deserves to have what she wants. (This may apply to Maria Callas and Asia Argento too - I don't know much about them.) There is always something about them that stands out, sets them apart and glamorizes their suffering - and one way to conceptualize it is that four will transform themselves into an object to be envied by others. Whatever is their deepest flaw in their eyes, it will be turned around as a beautiful show, making them a 'unique, special exception.'

FOURS OVERCOMPENSATE FOR ENVY
Many other types are more likely to envy in the colloquial sense. Fours don't go around saying "I want her hair," "I want his car." That's too much attention to the exterior world, which is not part of their interior world. They will have an extremely individualistic, highly specific vision of their ideal self and will only envy the few (with tremendous focus) who come close to that. Being "special" is an overcompensation for envy - as it excuses them from having to compete directly with 'normal people.' They make their own game, their own rules, their own ideal, so those other people cannot be comparable to them. There can also be a sense of "if I can't have it, then I don't want it." The compensations vary from four to four.

TO A FOUR, MOST PEOPLE DON'T EXIST
Fours introject so they feel tremendous empathy in the moment. They'll feel your feelings deeply as their own. This can be vampiric - as they are gaining emotional drama and inspiration from someone else's suffering. They also will generally seem compassionate or emotionally connected due to the introjection. People who make an image out of being a bitch are more likely to be super-ego or attached. There's an others-focus here, because "being a bitch" implies that your image is partly defined by your relationship to others. Fours benefit from what you give them, and seem very attuned to you, even if you're not particularly important to them in the long run. They have this in common with 7, except that 7 will return to the next exciting activity whereas four will take the emotions as their own and explore the implications within themselves. But neither type will have a great need to retain a positive or negative relation to YOU. If you do 'exist' to a four, it's because you are part of their inner world. The four will take you with them wherever they go, so the four doesn't necessarily need to see you and interact (though they may miss you and long for it). But they can glean a lot of emotions from the personal mythology that develops between you and them in their head.

To give an example: while many people envy "the person who their love interest is dating," the four might feel like that person doesn't exist, and direct their frustrated emotions at their love interest. S ince the four sees themself as "special," the "mundane human" who their love interest is dating might mean nothing to them, unless they believe that person is incredibly special too. More likely, they see their love interest as a special and unique person like themselves, and the "other woman" or "other man" is just some nameless faceless background noise. They may truly believe that their love interest chose that partner out of duty, whereas deep in their hearts the love interest really burns for the four. And if only the four could express how intense, obsessed, different, talented and amazing she is, then the love interest would leave mundanity behind and be with her. The love interest, then, is the four's 'utopia.' Her God.

FOUR IS PERFECTIONISTIC ABOUT THE WORK THAT EXPRESSES THEIR UNIQUE PERSONAL VISION
Four does not necessarily feel they were born with amazing talent, and even if they were, that's not enough. They understand the need to build oneself through sacrifice, martyrdom and labor, to get closer to utopia. Feeling that you're just blessed and born special is more positive outlook (2, 7, and 9) - and those types will resent having to work for people to recognize it. They might envy people with god-given talent, or assume that talented people were just unfairly lucky.

Fours have a line to 1, and are surrounded by 3 and 5. To get back to utopia they must work hard and sacrifice all kinds of things, such as relationships, pleasures of the flesh and allowing random input (like television or certain humans) to cloud their purity. Of course, the "work" is only treated this way if it involves expressing their interiorized image. If they're a waitress supporting their art, they'll obsess over every nuance of their art with perfectionistic refinement, whereas when they are waitressing, they'll just do what they have to, sacrificing their time to support their art, but they won't necessarily care about the company moving up, or think about 'waitressing' on their time off - because it's just something they do in the mundane world to survive. With line to 2, they take pride in their martyrdom and sacrifice 'for the sake of' transforming shame and brokenness into beauty; fulfilling their special unique talent or vision. A four will feel SELF MADE, not randomly blessed and lucky. If someone feels that way, and envies those who are talented without mentioning the hard work it takes, look at 2, 7 and 9... also the 'lost' 6, or the 'devious' 3, who can cut corners and then resent someone else's depth.

FIXATED FOURS VS. HEALTHY FOURS
The behaviors I listed are more egregious and extreme in FIXATED fours, and less so for HEALTHY fours. But a healthy four has confronted these issues and still remains a four. A healthy four is not someone who is "just like everyone else" and "accepts that there's nothing special about them," but rather someone whose communication of suffering may touch upon universal themes and inspire others; someone who can connect deeply to the suffering of others as equals; someone who recognizes the importance of all humanity and not just the special, chosen aliens- and someone who achieves equanimity. However, it's important to remember that uniqueness, individualism, and expression of suffering have a place in the world. Without these assets, the world would not be whole. So fours do not "give up" their originality, but rather direct it in a more positive way, which is beneficial for them and for others.

Feel free to challenge me on these points. This is an attempt to articulate some of my current thoughts on the themes of four. Some of these thoughts were heavily influenced by Roshan while others, she may disagree with. So assume these are my personal ideas unless otherwise specified.

**Animal** · 01-26-2020, 04:27 PM

It's important to remember that people work out strategies to deal with their type over time. This is why sometimes the fixes are louder to them than the core.

To use myself as example, when I was a child, I was completely focused on envying my brother. The envy was very straight forward, no frills. Just straight up hateful, teeth-baring, heart-curdling envy. Although we had fun when we played war games together, once my parents got involved I got feisty. I was up in arms over every extra toy he got. I acted out and got punished and disciplined as I deserved. My brother was beautiful and sweet; I was angry and intense. My parents had to go out of their way to show me they didn't favor him. Especially my mother, since I felt like she had turned me in like an old car and bought a new one. I would sometimes get along with my brother and other times play tricks on him. Kind of like Loki.... except...

.... when I was 8 years old, I said to my parents: "[My brother's name] is a nice boy. I'm not going to be mean to him anymore." And the bullshit stopped. I had already been playing piano since I was 4, but I turned now to writing songs, novels. I stayed up all night reading and writing my own stories. At first I wrote them in my head, then my diary, and later on the old 80s computer. I retreated to my own deep emotional world where my protagonist was a prostitute and homeless, with no ties to anyone. She was abused and had a horrible life, but she was beautiful. What she had was herself. She worked her way up in the world and built her own life, identity and passion. Just as I would do.

By the time I was twelve I had half a musical, two novels and several songs about homeless prostitutes. I retreated to a world which was all mine, for me and anyone I chose to put into it (like my crush) ... but no one else could touch or take away. The life in my fantasy became more real than Earth, and all I wanted to do was make it manifest.

Early on in childhood, my identity was consolidated. At age 2-5 I introduced myself as this character or that, and wore their outfit. By age 7, my outfit was my own costume, portraying my unique identity. My body was a canvas upon which to tell this story through symbols, hints and other expression. I honed my voice into a perfect instrument to express the frustrated passion inside me through singing my own songs and others. I was recognized for my extreme "genius" and "prodigy" talent, but when I tried out for shows I was often told: "You're the best singer that came around here, but you're not pretty enough to play the lead." I wanted more than anything to be pretty so that my inner beauty could be received without my ugly face getting in the way. But I still didn't think to myself, "I want to look like her." Nope - I wanted to look like my ideal version of me. So I got a nose job, worked on my posture and style - and then my career started to take off.

Then I got a chronic illness at age 16. My hair and eyebrows fell out, I got rashes, I lost and gained weight - but I still didn't compare myself to other girls. As much as I wished I were prettier, healthier - I would never want to give up any part of who I am to be like someone else. One could argue envy in saying "if I can't have it, I don't want it." One could say I'm establishing that I'm separate and different from others - to be unique. But this is unconscious. From my point of view, I am self made and my body is my canvas. The properties of that canvas are not nearly as relevant as the artist who molds it. That part is up to me.

I lost my voice to that same illness and was left speaking in a whisper permanently. I continued to pour my frustration and expression into other mediums, even though they could never measure up to my relationship with music. I didn't feel like, "sigh, poor me, if only." I found a way to express myself no matter what, refusing to trap my furious rage inside. The need to capture every minute of expression in some kind of art was paramount. I could not waste a minute. This needed to be photographed, written about, expressed, captured. It was intense, animalistic and raw.

Most of my frustration was about the loss of my voice. I would hear amazing female singers, somewhat similar to how my voice had been - and I might cry because their voice is beautiful, or because it harkens back to my childhood. I didn't do this often because I needed time to heal, but when I did I would appreciate the beauty of what they were doing. What made me burn with fury I cannot describe - is bad music that was compared to mine. For example, some singer would bare some remote resemblance to my aesthetic, so people would say, "This person reminds me of you!" - but her voice was not well trained, her message was cheap, and she was just like everyone else - a cardboard copy, doing a monkey dance for money. I cannot begin to describe the fury I felt then. Why should that boring, unrefined, shallow creature have the funds to bring her pathetic visions to life when mine were so much more beautiful and they're trapped inside me, due to this curse I didn't ask for?? I never felt directly envious of the great singers, but rather angry at the bad ones for having the opportunity to do what I should have been doing, despite that they didn't deserve it.

What I didn't feel, was this kind of whining, sighing "poor me, I wish I could be like her" that is described in RH four. I am not defeatist, nor fragile. Simply put, I don't give up that easily. There's always something inside me that can come out, something I'm capable of mastering. I'm not going to sit here sighing out the window at the life that passed me by - not even if I'm sick. If I can't walk, I crawl. If I can't work, I make forums online and write books.

I have grown beyond whining about my mother loving my brother more. I didn't simply transfer this to others - I learned to compensate for it. I employed strategies such as building my own identity, completely set apart from the common person, having an inner world and a particular style through which I express it, that no one else has. This way I can't be jealous because I would not give up that world, that expression, that identity - for all the looks, boyfriends and assets in the world. I could still be furious that I was not able to express it adequately, due to the illness, while others were able to, yet did not deserve it - but what I could not do is to watch someone else and sigh, "If only I were her," or, "I wish I had her attention, her beauty, her voice...sigh...." Nope. I can't relate to this at all. If anything, good singers strengthened my resolve to get my music out there no matter what setbacks came my way. To beat the odds senseless and reclaim my vision. That's the Sp 4 "I will prevail!" - and the other fours will have different specific defenses - but the bottom line is, there's often a defense against envy, not always a full embrace of it.

In general, type should be viewed through this lens. Any type can envy someone else but a four has to contend with this in a deeper way, just as each type has to contend with their own fixation. To spot a four, look for the compensation for envy. Find the strategy they have employed to deal with that envy, rather than just asking "Do you want to be like someone else?" People who want to be like others generally lack a sense of personal identity, whereas fours have one which they build since they are a child. The four's deepest need is to express that identity just as it is - and this is where the frustration comes from - because they never can express exactly what is inside. It is not to "find an identity." So, if a person is so ready to give up who she is to 'be like someone else,' you might want to consider another core type for them.

**Daeva** · 01-30-2020, 07:35 PM

The Four with a Three-Wing

The traits of the Four are in some degree of conflict with the traits of the Three-wing: Fours are introverted, withdrawn, vulnerable and self-aware, whereas Threes are extroverted, popular, well defended, and lack self-awareness. The Four's search for self is in marked contrats to the Three's ability to project simulated images to others without regard to the real self. The Four's fear of exposing itself (in a sense, a fear of success) is the opposite of the Three's self-display and competitive desire for success. The Four's introverted self-consciousness contrasts with the Three's charm and other extroverted social skills.

As conflicting as these two component types are, both are nevertheless concerned with self-esteem issues: the Four tends to have low self-esteem, the Three high self-esteem. Both opposing sets of traits can coexist in the same person, although uneasily. Noteworthy examples of the Four with a Three-wing include Tennessee Williams, Maria Callas, Rudolf Nureyev, Frederic Chopin, Marcel Proust, Martha Grahm, Paul Simon, Harold Pinter, Lawrence Olivier, Robert DeNiro, Walt Whitman, Albert Camus, E.M. Forster, Gustav Mahler, Peter Illich Tchaikovsky, Charles Ryder, and Blanche DuBois.

Because of the Three-wing, healthy people of this subtype can be sociable, ambitious, and accomplished, particularly in the arts. The are in touch with who they are and who they are becoming, but with a more extroverted, energetic dimension to them. People of this subtype are also usually ambitious, physically attractive, and possess a certain social sense, which counterbalances the Four's tendency to withdraw from others. They are adaptable, sensitive to others, and have a good sense of humor.

Average people of this subtype may be helped out of their self-absorption by a concern for what others think of them. Since people of this subtype have the ability to project a favorable image, they are able to conceal their real emotional condition more effectively than othe other subtype: others may not realize how vulnerable or emotionally troubled they may be. Fours with a Three-wing are competitive and interested in making something of themselves in the world, but they fear success, self-exposure, and possible humiliation. However, to the degree that the Three-wing is operative, this subtype also has narcissistic tendencies (exhibitionistic desires for their behavior. And, to the degree that their narcissistic needs are unfulfilled in reality, their desires for triumph can both play a part in their fantasy life and become a focal point for disappointments.

Since unhealthy persons of this subtype are still fundamentally Fours, they take out their aggressions principally on themselves. The are self-inhibited and alienated from others, depressed, self-contemptuous, and so forth. However, to the degree that the Three-wing plays a part in the overall personality, there will be moments when they act like unhealthy Threes. People of this subtype can be hostile and malicious; their secret envy of others will be reinforced by the Three-wing's jealousy. Exploitativeness, opportunism, and duplicity may also be present, although these traits increase their shame and guilt if they should succumb to them. The vindictive malice which we find in Threes is rarely acted upon by this subtype. If it ever is, however, neurotics of this subtype will punish themselves even more severly than they inflict pain on anyone else. Crimes of passion and suicide are possible.

The Four with a Five-Wing

The traits of Fours and of Fives tend to reinforce each other. Both are withdrawn types: Fours withdraw to protect their feelings, Fives to protect their security. Fours with a Five-wing will be markedly more observant of the environment, particularly of other people. There is an intellectual depth and intensity here which is not found in the other subtype, but also a corresponding social insecurity. Noteworthy examples of the Four with a Five-wing include Virginia Woolf, Franz Kafka, Ingmar Bergman, Saul Steinberg, J.D. Salinger, Bob Dylan, Soren Kierkegaard, Hermann Hesse, William Blake, and Hamlet.

Healthy, gifted individuals of this subtype are probably the most profoundly creative of all the types because they combine intuition with insight, emotional sensitivity with intellectual comprehension, frequently with stunningly original, even prophetic, results. Four with a Five-wing burn brighter than Fours with a Three-wing, but at the risk of burning themselves out faster.

Average persons of this subtype are given not merely to self-absorption, but to philosophical and religious speculation. Their emotional world is the dominant reality, but with a strong intellectual cast. People of this subtype tend to be extreme loners, more lacking in social connectedness than the other subtype. Thus, their artisitic expressions more completely substitute for the person than in Fours with a Three-wing. These people also frequently have an otherworldly, ethereal quality about them; they are extremely independent and unconventional to the point of eccentricity. They also tend to be secretive, intesely preoccupied with their thoughts, and purposely enigmatic in their self-expressions. Their creative ideas may also be somewhat unsual, possibly even surreal. Members of this subtype care little for communicating with those who cannot understand them. Rather, they are interested in expressing their inner vision, whether sublime or terrifying, bleak or lyrical.

Unhealthy persons of this subtype inhabit a particularly barren and terrifying inner world. There is a self-denying, even life-denying element of inner resistance to everything outside the self, throwing all of the Four's existential problems into sharper relief. Since Four is the fundamental personality type, fours with a Five-wing are assailed by self-doubt, depression, alienation from others, inhibitions in their work, and self-contempt. To the degree that the Five-wing plays a part in the overall personality, unhealthy fours of this subtype will also resist being helped by anyone, thus increasing their alienation from others. They also tend to project their fears into the environment, resulting in distorted thinking patters which may include elements of suspicion, paranoia, and phobias. Not only are people of this subtype subject to torment from their self-hatred, they can see very little that is positive outside themselves, and they become very pessimistic about the apparant meaninglessness of life. Of all the personality types, peopleof this subtype are potentially the most isolated from themselves and from reality. They are prone to the depressive forms of schizophrenia.

(from: Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery by Don Richard Riso)

So many 6's in their type examples for 4: Robert DeNiro, Hamlet (HAMLET!!!!!), Bob Dylan,...

This is why I don't like these descriptions. Their typings of people is just so off. The hyper 6-ish "To Be or Not To Be" of Hamlet is turned into a 4w5? Ouch. It just saddens me. They fucked up the public perception of 6's and 9's so much, and then proceeded to over-humanize 4 and make it too relatable to many who don't even have 4 in their Trifix.

They even put the "fear of success" in the 4w3 descriptor, when this is straight up the tension between types 3 and 6. In many ways, type 3's relation to 6 can be summed up as "fear of success," and we are all too familiar with the self-sabotaging nature of 6 in response to their connection to 3.

BY WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
(from Hamlet, spoken by Hamlet)

I intended to highlight which elements of the poem is 6, but I ended up putting every line in bold. It is all 6. Not even a "4 fix" is necessary.

**Animal** · 02-03-2020, 11:19 PM

Nailed it.

By j-witless on Deviant art.com

https://www.deviantart.com/j-witless/art/Envy-704784946

Click image for larger version

Name: 8fb536263badf402f4ee7b87fc40258a.jpg
Views: 503
Size: 42.9 KB
ID: 7882

Click image for larger version

Name: da72776aed6917b61b62f3f189d0f456.png
Views: 523
Size: 986.0 KB
ID: 7881

**Animal** · 02-12-2020, 01:17 PM

Gone with the Wind - Scarlett O'Hara and Me, Fours
Old post from Enneatude. August 3, 2019.

Enneagram is, at base, a set of defenses to orient us through chaos. Our defenses protect us from being wide open and vulnerable to our deeper fear of death, nothingness, lovelessness, and other trauma that the fragile human mind can't cope with.

In the case of Scarlett O'Hara and me, longing for what we can't have protects us from rejection. It keeps us 'safe' in the confines of our minds, where only one person exists - the one who is JUST out of reach - while everyone else is a tool who can be used to make him jealous, to soothe the pain of not having him, and to give us the love that we so deeply crave. But if we would let go of that "one person" -- or, the idea of him -- then we would be completely vulnerable to the person we're with, and it would be 'death of the ego.' That extreme, gnawing need to be loved, protected, to live forever, to be admired, worshipped... would make us completely vulnerable at the mercy of the person we're with--- and that would not be very attractive, would it? Obviously, he would like us more if we're hard to reach and we need to be chased. It's self evident. Men love a good chase; it gets them hard. Ashley could not even love his 'perfect' Melanie because she was too available, too good, too easy to get. He disrespected her by allowing Scarlett to hug him, kiss him.... in his 9ish triangulation and inability to set limits and separate his own agenda from others, he found himself 'caught up' in Scarlet's passion and made sure to keep her hanging on by a string. Scarlett could be satisfied knowing that everyone, including Ashley, longs for HER 'deep down' even if they are not with her. She has power over Ashley that his wife never can--- his wife is "regular" - "just a wife." Scarlet is something more... something of her own making... something no other woman can be. She is a fantasy and she knows all too well that there's nothing more satisfying to the soul than a fantasy. Once a marriage becomes real, it's just another 'regular old ordeal,' replaceable. Her ego says that being unique makes her lovable. Like me: "I'm an animal, not a wife."

I know this all too well. I was obsessed with a 9ish man - I will call him MK - that I couldn't have for many years. When I met another man - I will call him RC - he was also obsessed with someone else; both of our obsessions became known to each other pretty quickly. RC and I never dated officially... it was always an exciting chase, quite similar to Scarlett's behavior with Rhett. The difference is that RC ALSO had his own "Ashley/MK" in another 9 Sx woman, who kept him hanging by a string, much like MK did with me and Ashley did with Scarlett. So RC and I could be up front.

But in the mean time both RC and I (and I'll point out he is heavily four fixed) - relied on each other more deeply, loved each other more truly, whereas the other person was more of a phantom who protected us from the risk of being rejected by each other. If RC rejected me or I felt rejected by him in a certain instance, there was always MK at the same scene, willing to hang on me and hug me and make me feel important, though he never truly gave in. If MK wasn't paying attention to me, there was always RC to chase. And underneath all of that, I still REALLY loved my very first love, JBC, who I had a deeper relationship with , than RC or MK could ever fathom... and who would always still love me, even if he was a wild man and unmarriageable.

So my ego was safe from harm, you see. Nobody had the power to destroy me completely because there was always something 'more' .... way over there. Someone else was always the star of my novels, the muse of my songs, the song in my heart. And my true home is Erosia.

Deep self work, on its own, was not enough to fully break this cycle. It was also Daeva 's honesty in 'calling out' my ego's bluff with another guy, early on... and being completely open hearted and honest and available rather than playing into the cycle of games, as RC did. Since I don't have any worry deep down that Daeva will reject me, or that he doesn't understand me, doesn't REALLY care, etc; I have very minimal (unconscious) need to long for something else. There's no fear of rejection, no shame in loving him as much as I do. No fear of death either, because we are forever.

I still have minimal draw to other guys, but it dies out quickly, and I know that it arises from a place of insecurity about my relationship. This is something I've been able to observe due to enneagram study because it REALLY is not obvious. The way I combat this is by being honest about all of it with Daeva, and how it ties into four, usually me envying the other guy in some way too and thus wanting his attention to show my worth to myself... and we work through this together and the bullshit fantasy fades away as I give myself fully to a man who loves me on every level and who I am able to trust.... who I KNOW loves me. Something I could not say with confidence about any other, not even JBC after things went awry. No matter how deeply I told myself "JBC loves me" or "RC can't live without me" or "MK is just afraid of my intensity" (exactly as Scarlett told Ashley)... I was assuring myself because I didn't really believe I could be loved, or that they did love me. This is what causes the ego defenses to kick in.

None of those men were able to give Scarlett the kind of trust she needed. None could understand that she did this out of desperation, fear, shame. They didn't understand how deeply desperate she felt and that this whole "Ashley" fantasy was bullshit, created as a mirage for her ego to escape to when she didn't feel loved.

To me she is a clear four. I played very similar games. The big difference is I didn't marry anyone for their money, but I did make a parade out of guys being into me, or being with guys, so I could make MK or RC jealous. I played them against each other at my lowest health levels. (*This is also the manipulative line to low 2.) But I was honest with each guy about how I felt; there were no clueless husbands who I was "using" for money. In that, I was not quite as narcissistic and delusional as Scarlett, but I was no angel either. Another difference is she cries openly and makes a lot of demands. I always hid my obsessive feelings and wrote poems, songs and books about 'suffering in silence' and enduring it. This is Sp/Sx vs. Sx/Sp. I lack the capacity to throw myself into the arms of a man who isn't fully in love with me, so in that sense my game playing could be EVEN COLDER and more ruthless than hers. To me , she is Sx/Sp 4w3 with a 7 fix.

Scarlett never found her 'Daeva,' the person who could see her as 'weak, desperate,' while still appreciating her genuine strengths. As Daeva pointed out to me, people tend to project their OWN type's defenses onto others, on some level. So it took someone like Daeva who was familiar with his own desperation, his 'one down position,' the fear that lies beneath a beautiful statuesque mask - to see through mine and to understand that all I want is for him to love me.

---

I will share a few of my comments from the comment chain.

*

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I'm glad I don't make myself vulnerable in such an outright way, but in another way I kind of envy the rawness of it. It would have potentially saved me a lot of trouble if , at the very least, I confessed my feelings to people I was obsessing over for years, so I'd have some idea how they would react. In her case though, it didn't matter how they react, all that existed to her was her own feelings. So considering how deep I was in my own fixation, I suppose if I had her exact fixations I would not really be better off.

In the beginning she says "Ashley doesn't know that I love him, so if I tell him, then he can't marry her!" or something like that. I could hold on to stories like that in my own head because "he doesn't know how I feel." And I would , at some point in the future, blow his mind with some amazing project that would show him, and if he had any resistance it would be gone when he saw this album/book/etc.

Rejection by the man I'm most obsessed with can feel like DEATH, but death is metaphorical and I see myself "dying" into my art, using the pain and 'death' as fuel - and rising again like a phoenix.

--

Yeah - imo, that's why Scarlett wanted to be a wild fantasy and not a wife. She didn't want to be in the position of the boring, regular person who gets cheated on with someone more interesting and "out of reach." Scarlet projected her own taste for "that which is just out of reach" onto others, assuming that everyone would be more interested in some fantasy that they can't have, and tried to keep herself in the position of 'fantasy woman' so that she always held the deepest part of mens' souls. With the exception of guys who she didn't give a fuck about and just used for money or chess pieces.

I always said I wouldn't marry unless he's my soulmate and I had every intention of making myself into the person who would attract my soulmate. I figured he'd find me through my music, my writing, or whatever --- somehow , somewhere. And he did.

Here are some comments about Melanie, Rhett, and Scarlett's relations with them. I want to point out that Scarlett did not focus on "hating Melanie," envying her, or competing with her. Instead, Scarlett minimized her. Basically, Melanie didn't really exist to her. She was 'one of the crowd,' a regular person, who could garner Scarlett's basic empathy in the moment that they're together, but who simply did not exist in Scarlett's personal meanderings. Scarlett could help Melanie, could be cordial, could even appreciate things about her, but she would kiss Melanie's husband without thinking of Melanie at all. Because the only people who existed in Scarlett's inner world were herself, Ashley, and Rhett... not Melanie.

This is exactly how I am, and why I mistyped at first. In her position, I would not focus on hating or envying Melanie. I would focus on my own feelings for Ashley and minimize Melanie as 'just some normie' even if there were things about her that I liked. If Melanie were a great singer, like MK's girlfriend was, then that's a different story. But provided she's just a regular person in my mind, not someone who fulfills my lost destiny, I would not focus on her at all, and would feel no particular need to be mean to her either. This is four. For fours, what exists to them is the world inside, the drama, the 'special few.' The rest is just mundane background noise which gets minimized in their fantasy world. So there is no need to make a scene out of being an asshole to some 'plebian' 'normie.' Just deal with them while they're there, and return to your inner world, where the real drama lies.

*

Melanie may be a genuinely kind person - and I do believe that. But she also is human and must have had some emotions about what was going on between Ashley and Scarlet. She must have thought, how am I going to deal with this? When she saw them hugging each other. And she chose to be kind.... which is genuine, but also a choice, therefore a 'strategy.' Rhett said that Melanie is not the kind of fool that Scarlet thinks she is. Rhett knew Melanie knew what she was doing more than Scarlet gave her credit for - and that's why he respected Melanie.

Rhett was a good judge of character to some degree. He failed to realize that Scarlet didn't really love Ashley though, and that she was not really in control. For instance, he didn't realize that when Scarlet was sick, she was calling out for Rhett. He just assumed she didn't care. He could not see her fully as she was.

Melanie DID realize it. Melanie KNEW that Scarlet loved Rhett more than she realized. Rhett couldn't see that underneath all of Scarlet's games she loved him, and every time Scarlet made a breakthrough and started to realize it, Rhett undermined it with divorce threats or various types of rejections. I'm not saying I blame him, because she was shitty to him, but still...

Rhett was right to equate himself to Scarlet because in a way, he too wanted what he couldn't have. He fell in love with her feisty spirit and, from the first minute, wanted her to say the things to him that she once said to Ashley. He saw himself as 'not the marrying kind,' ruthless, unattainable - and he saw her as being 'like him.' But whenever she was becoming vulnerable and open to him, he put up a wall.

In many instances from the beginning, he enjoyed watching her debase herself. She would lean her head in for a kiss and he would say "I'm not going to kiss you now" and embarrass her. He left her alone with the horse and pregnant Melanie, just when she was fawning over him for being smarter and not fighting. These type of actions just fed into her "you can't have me" games and her mistrust. She noticed that Rhett was more into her when she obsessed over Ashley than when she batted her eyes at him. When Rhett threatened her, pressed her head in and said he'd (in essence) kill her to get Ashley out of her mind, then ravaged her in a jealous rage, she woke up singing and happy. She had his passion, his attention. But when she showed more need and dependency, he always had some other war to fight.

Although Rhett and Scarlet may have been alike in some ways, it was not a good match if real trust was to form. I think Rhett and Melanie would have been a better pairing, really. Someone like Melanie would have brought out his better traits and his REAL honor. And she deserved someone with stronger conviction than Ashley.

I also found it somewhat satisfying that Rhett honored, trusted and appreciated Melanie so deeply -- which hurt Scarlett - and she deserved that, given how she dissed Melanie by chasing her husband and reducing her to 'some boring person' who he couldn't possibly love. Melanie didn't do that on purpose but it was a kind of poetic justice.

Melanie had Ashley's and Rhett's respect, something Scarlett never could.

Some comments regarding Sx vs. Sp 4. Someone asked why I am not typing as Sx 4 anymore. There is a lot of stuff about myself, but you can read it for some insight to how I see Sp 4 vs. Sx 4 and how I compare my themes to those of Scarlett O'Hara.

*

There are a lot of major differences between me and her in that department. For instance I've never gone up to a guy and made demands and said "Oh but I love you!" I hold that stuff in for years and just put it into my art, which will outlast my feelings, my flesh and my relationships. She is much more competitive, hateful, immediate , demanding and "spilling" -- I'm really not. My original typing was Sp/Sx but I got talked out of it because people insisted I embodied everything Sx. However, I really do not spill sensitive feelings. They'd burn me alive before I'd let them out.

Tbh, outside of facebook groups I have spent most of my time in my life practicing scales, editing and re-editing tenaciously, learning skills and obsessing over projects. The actual time I spend Sx-ing is minimal; I didn't even let boyfriends sleep over because I wanted to be free to get up in the morning and be productive. I had 10K saved up by the time I was 15, and a career. I forsook dating or sex for many long periods, even when I looked at my best in my 20s, for the sake of focusing on work. It's only because enneagram helps with writing, and now I'm committed to seeing this project through - that I'm investing so much time on forums, and then the art and writing I post here is where my Sx comes out. But day to day, I don't dress up that much, don't put that much time into guys etc; I reserve all that feeling for my art, music and writing and my facebook screeds.

A major difference is that I tend to garner people's RESPECT rather than their DESIRE. I don't garner respect in the sense of being an 'upright citizen' like a 1ish person; but people tend to look at me and see a hard working person who cares about doing well and doesn't impose on others (except in the sense of being 'boss' ). In Scarlet's case everyone DESIRED her, but most people couldn't respect her and saw her falling apart all the time. This is a very very different thing for me.

And the idea that a four of any type would be 'stoic' is absurd (this is more gut types blocking out feelings), but I am hard to get a reaction out of irl, unless I want to react. Guys I was most obsessed with truly believed that I didn't care at all, because I was shut off (and I'm talking about the "Ashleys" not the "Rhetts" in my life). This was something that annoyed boyfriends - that I was over-focused on my work and not on them, that they couldn't get me to show much affection , I was emotionally unavailable, etc. I was not "Oh Ashley! Oh Ashley!" never once in my life, eVer.

Also I've never been into a guy that was taken. When MK had a girlfriend at one point, I shut off to him completely. But a four is a four is a four. If someone can't relate to the basics of four then they're not a four. Period. Sp 4 doesn't make someone a whole different type who can't relate to basic core four themes. But my presentation of those themes is basically opposite from hers.

I never talked about my envy at all, even on this forum. I hardly ever complain about my very severe, ongoing symptoms, though I do - firmly and strongly - make cultural statements about Lyme, using myself as an example so that others can see themselves in it and diagnose themselves. I do a lot for this group and I never lash out and tell people how much I sacrifice; I just think I can take the burden.

I am ALWAYS pushing against something and pushing a boulder up a hill tenaciously. Even when I was typing as Sx/So, you could see on my website, "Dear Lyme: take my voice, take my hair, take my mobility - but if you want my passion, you're going to have to kill me." "I beat the odds senseless, rose from the ashes." Etc. This is how I handle suffering a constant state of uncertainty about whether I'll live another month. This is Sp four. I don't complain. I feel like a fucking idiot even saying this now. And when it comes to my unrequited crushes I DEFINITELY don't complain. I have shared about that here-- about my past-- due to the nature of the topic and the fact that now I'm happily married. I've gone out on a limb trusting people here and trying to 'do the work' - but don't mistake that for me spilling this stuff into the streets.

Most people cannot imagine the symptoms and suffering that I endure day to day, not even people who live with me!!!! I wouldn't even tell Daeva how horrible I felt, the first year or two, unless he noticed on his own. And then I'd play it down. I still don't, although I do allow him now to take me to the doctor.

My mother had to train me to tell my doctors my symptoms instead of telling them "I'm fine." Whereas if Scarlet is the least bit uncomfortable, the whole world gets to hear her cry and scream. This is not me. Again, I'll emphasize that I've opened up and shared a lot on this forum in an effort for growth. But still, not like her.

I've showed tenacity with this forum and website, tenacity with editing my book for 10 years, tenacity with my illness, tenacity with obsessing over guys and keeping it completely to myself.... where's the competitive hate? where's the spillage? In a few stories about my past when I was level 8 health? Where is it now?

It's quite obvious that I pride myself on my WILLPOWER, tenacity and drive. Beating the odds senseless, fighting death head on, suffering for the cause. You can see my Sx loud and clear in my writing, but even then, it points out that I'm suffering IN SILENCE. And this is me at level 8 or 9 health -- at my worst, this ALL goes into my art and NOWHERE else.

**Animal** · 02-12-2020, 02:44 PM

INVIDIA (Envy)
Old thread from Enneatude. March 20, 2019.

This is what's missing from the Enneagram textbooks on E4:

https://thedemoniacal.blogspot.com/2010/04/invidia.html

Invidia is the Roman goddess of envy and jealousy whom the Romans identified with Nemesis.

Appearance: As identified with Nemesis, Invidia was portrayed as a winged woman brandishing a sword and carrying scales. However, Invidia as envy and jealousy was also portrayed as a hideously thin hag, with serpents in her hair and with large fangs for teeth. Later in the middle ages, the goddess of envy was portrayed as having green eyes and a serpent for a tongue. For images of Invidia, click HERE, HERE, and HERE.
[Note: I will post these below.]

Lore: As goddess of envy, Invidia was used by the gods to punish mortals for their offences. The explanation for why envy is so heartless is because Invidia ripped out her own heart and devoured it. Invidia takes delight in the suffering and pain of others and suffers when others prosper or are successful. As for her home, Invidia is believed to dwell in a foul, disgusting cave where the sun never shines and where the wind never blows. There she passes her time, until needed, by feeding upon serpents.

Powers: Invidia poisons her victims by her mere touch as well as her breathing her noxious breath upon them. Once infected, the victim becomes obsessed with envy, metaphorically consuming their own hearts just as the goddess was believed to have done. Invidia's main power is that of the evil eye, which is the envious stare. Such is believed by most cultures to bring misfortune.

Invidia In Christianity: Invidia has survived in Christianity as one of the seven deadly sins. Envy was personified by early Christian authors and much in the same fashion as the pagan view of her as being a hideous hag.

Here are some pictures of Invidia - as depicted on Wikipedia and elsewhere online - against pictures of myself, with my own song lyrics. Note the shame (hiding part of the face behind hair, leaning the head down, an object in front of it, or a sideways angle), the "evil eye" and burning stare, the hunched posture, and aura of covetousness, possessiveness.

Click image for larger version Name: 7ee213e7e59f2f17a695d0cb134d69fb.jpg Views: 0 Size: 120.3 KB ID: 8014

Here are several other fours. Many of these fours were typed by Roshan and people she worked with before us, and none had been contested in Enneatude. Note that we welcome challenges, but please be informed and have a strong case, because the people who typed celebs that we posted on this page have invested ample time into each typing. I will do write-ups on some celebrities of my own choice to discuss their typing, but cannot possibly cover each one.

Again, note the posture, covetousness, envious/evil eye, hiding parts of the face behind something (a cigarette, leaning the face slightly) to show shame.. and seeming 'over exposed' when the face is not hidden. Note the sadness in the eyes mixed with angry envy. The word that comes to mind with all of these people is 'covetousness.' Suffering and emotional expression is right up front, and the shame is palpable. With four cores, you see each passing emotion on their face, moment to moment. Not just the extreme ones.. but the subtle "sub-emotions" too. Everything is right there in the eyes. The same can be heard in the way they sing... each note is filled with emotions and sub-emotions. Each passing moment is another emotion being expressed from deep inside, no matter what the four is or isn't saying. Four is 'interiorized image.' The outer image shows the interior experience, loud and clear.

From left to right:

1st Row: Milo Yiannopolus, Leonard Cohen, Tenessee Williams, Giorgio di Sant'Angelo, Vivien Leigh
2nd Row: Dylan Thomas, Asia Argento, Lorde, Oriana Fallaci, Joni Mitchell
3rd Row: Richard Ayoade, Nick Cave, Irene Papas, Malcolm McLaren, Antony Hegarty
4th Row: Queen Elizabeth of Austria, Maria Callas, Dusty Springfield, Federico Garcia Lorca, Sarah Mclachlan

Click image for larger version Name: 66aef1e8136f2b3d8bb5fcddbc186bc7.jpg Views: 0 Size: 157.2 KB ID: 8019

My father delivered this to me - he found it in an old box, probably from when my brother and I were teenagers. I have no recollection of its existence, but the handwriting is explicitly mine.

Click image for larger version Name: ec840828e6b48baf2477c2872e068771.jpg Views: 0 Size: 48.2 KB ID: 8012

**Mahat** · 02-26-2020, 02:48 PM

https://www.holybooks.com/william-bl...ons-of-reason/

Divine: the true heartAnimal mentioned. The 4 creates its own origin story, an expression of how their subjectivity musthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublime_(philosophy Animal

03-02-2015 06:09 PM
Romanticism is not specifically about Sex, Relationships or Chivalry
Romanticism is a state of mind that stems from vulnerability and an open-hearted relationship with the world. A true romantic experiences compassion, empathy, curiosity and energy. Romantics are moved to the core by something, be it beauty, pain, sorrow, rage, joy, impermanence, diversity, loneliness or vastness. Whatever it is, it stirs a romantic to the bone. The wide-eyed wonder and open-hearted sensitivity of a child is easy for a true romantic to relate to. Of course, even romantics will endure disappointments and thus feel less moved by their surroundings for periods of time - but in their natural state, a romantic is sensitive to the nuances of the world.

Romanticism is feeling a song in the pit of your stomach. Filling yourself with the scent of a forest. Feeling chills run down your back from listening to a violin solo. Caressing a kitten and finding it so delicate and beautiful that you shake. Tearing up at the sight of a wounded bird. Feeling a raging volcano in your chest upon watching a video of children being abused. Being in awe of the vastness of nature. Feeling the grass between your toes. Learning something about yourself from observing an animal. Savoring the taste of a bloody steak and feeling energy run through you as you eat it. Listening to the beat of your own heart. Being mind blown by the vastness of space and curious about what it is made of. Pondering your own mortality and feeling grateful for the wonder of life. Feeling inspired by the integrity, brilliance, strength, honesty or beauty of a person, animal or plant.

Complimenting a lover in order to make them want to get naked with you, is not romanticism. It is seduction. It is, in essence, stimulating someone's ego for the sake of a result. I have nothing against seduction. I am simply drawing a contrast. Daydreaming about a future with someone is not romanticism either. It is human to want a partner, and to wish to sustain a connection with someone you feel close to.

I am completely in favor of traditional acts of chivalry - but this is not the same as genuine romanticism. It may be coupled with romanticism, but in itself, that is not what it is. It is only romantic if every action is felt at the core. If you are dancing along with the flow of your feelings. It is romantic if it is an expression of how generous that person makes you feel and the kindness your lover awakens inside of you.

Traditionalism is romantic if and only if it is an expression of one's beliefs and lifestyle, and genuine understanding and respect for the traditions it arose from. It may be romantic if it is an expression of reverence for your culture, the culture of specific ancestors, or a state of mind that you truly possess. But it is not romantic if someone walks a walk and does not feel the rhythm running through their core. I am not claiming it's wrong or evil to do that, but simply that it is not romanticism.

My theory about why "romanticism" is conflated with relationships, is that being attracted to someone awakens certain hormones and chemicals which induce such a state temporarily. Expression of these feelings is known as "romance" - and that is not incorrect. But, a person is not innately "romantic" because they are turned on by the prospect of a relationship. A person is a romantic at heart if they are in a romantic relationship with the world, regardless of whether or not they are currently dating anyone. This romanticism, of course, will be augmented in love and shared with a lover, if it is part of someone's general personality. However, if it is induced in someone solely by the prospect of sex and relationships, the person will fade back to their usual state in a long-term relationship.

**Animal** · 02-26-2020, 03:29 PM

Atelier The only way I can respond to that post is - Thank you. Your brilliance with words... it's divine. I'm purring!

It encapsulates the 'reaching for the divine' - in my case, striving here in Dystopia to 'bring Erosia to Earth' through the vessel that is me - to become the embodiment of Erosia.

Click image for larger version Name: c0135254a524546880bf1bae30f3969d.jpg Views: 0 Size: 58.1 KB ID: 8177

Click image for larger version Name: 273cc2b1b0ee33f63272f742a3c31e0d.jpg Views: 0 Size: 83.0 KB ID: 8178

And here, some idolatry.... where 'he' is the sole path to Erosia. Yet in truth, 'he' is really a reflection of my ideal self. That's why I became healthier through embodying HIM - directly - with all his beauty and flaws - rather than project him onto someone else. That projection only happened at health level 8-9, for me. The higher or average health level was always about me and Erosia, or me dressed up as the 'man,' embodying those qualities myself. My marriage for instance does involve expressing my romantic tendencies toward him, but not viewing him as MY path to Erosia. (Rather, we are on that journey together.)

Click image for larger version Name: cec7390fd063f62ea5139a54d4acf288.jpg Views: 0 Size: 186.7 KB ID: 8179

**The Bismuth Bard** · 04-26-2020, 11:25 AM

I was wondering, can you be reactive on the inside but not on the outside? I know you said like the drama was on the surface and stuff, but yeah. Why I I'm asking is that I relate to 4 and 6 a lot but don't feel super reactive. Maybe it's my 9 core tempering things? I relate to 4 as I'm a constant search for my unique identity and experience a lot of envy and find beauty in sadness and having no identity is a big fear of mine. But yeah, I'm pretty chill and calm on the outside. I try to show off my identity a lot and relate to that paragraph about interiorized identity, but yeah, no real drama on the surface. I get angry about being invalidated and misunderstood for example, but I don't share it much cause I don't wanna argue.

**The Bismuth Bard** · 04-26-2020, 12:59 PM

Animal . That makes sense. I've seen people be like reactive isn't about being angry and yeah that does seem pretty shallow but then I have people doubting my type because of how easygoing I come across.

Do you have any tips for making a typing thread? I haven't seen any questionnaires on here like I do on other sites.

**Animal** · 04-27-2020, 05:46 PM

I am copying this post from another thread about the problems with Riso & Hudson's 4 description.

https://archetribe.com/forum/typolog...=9421#post9421

So, if four is not about 'wanting to be unique compared to others,' 'trying on identities' and 'feeling sad,' then you may be wondering, what is it about?

We have a whole thread discussing this, but I will try to explain in simple terms, where I believe that R&H went wrong - and diverted away from the original writers, Ichazo and Naranjo, in their treatment of four. I will delve much more deeply into this over time, but here is my preliminary sense of what four is about and where RH went wrong.

First, I will post Ichazo's description so you know the barebones text that I'm referring to. I will say that Ichazo's descriptions are short and require massive interpretation and contextualizing in order to make sense. But along with others on this forum, I am doing my best to wrestle with the information that we have, and come to a rational and workable description of each type. The important thing to focus on is the central mechanisms, not "this type does this and that type does that." What is the central meaning of each type? I am working my ass off on this, as are others on this forum -- but I'm not there yet. So this post is very informal. I am actually copying the text of this post from a PM chat with Mahat where I explained some of my initial thoughts. Anyway, here is Ichazo.

Alas, this is my over-simplified view of what four is really about. It's really important to address this in great detail, and I feel like it should be sourced to show that I'm in line with the older authors and why I believe this, but that takes a lot of energy and time - so I want to at least post the basic premise - which is that four has absolutely nothing to do with uniqueness.

'Uniqueness' is an attachment concept - for one cannot be unique without comparing themselves to others. In order for anything to be unique, there has to be a 'norm' standard to compare it to. And that "norm standard," and deviating from it, is simply outside of the four's focus. Therefore, four is not about uniqueness but rather, a need for authenticity and getting trapped in the need to express oneself authentically. All reactive types share this focus on authenticity, but four is an image type who is focused on it - meaning that they want their image to mirror what they feel is authentic inside of them. So the catch is that when you're trying to express what's authentic, then that authentic thing becomes an 'idea of what is authentic' and turns into a bonsai garden - an imitation of something that was real, rather than simply 'being' what it is.

This is why Ichazo brings up the dichotomy of argumentative vs. shallow for fours - as he is referencing an expression of your 'real' self vs. a shallow imitation. Argumentativeness is a quality of four, as they have a need to express themselves in general. They may be quiet or outgoing, loud or private - but either way, when they are interacting, they will be automatically wired to express what's inside - which is not only their identity but also any ideas they may have, their 'personal point of view.' The focus on expressing their pov authentically leads to an intense subjectivity, since the four is over-focused on their own expression and making sure they do it 'correctly' (read, line to 1) -- rather than actually considering the validity of said argument in a more objective way. And this is why Ichazo calls four the over-reasoner. "My authentic self is....... because......"

Ichazo also points out that the path of equanimity (being more balanced between your feelings and reason) leads to holy origin. When you reach origin, then you're expressing something so true about yourself (origin) that it's primal and it also mirrors the truth of humanity (shared origin). You strip yourself so bare, and so real, that others can see themselves in that reflection. So it's about the path from an 'attempt' at one's own personal authenticity, to true origin.

Therefore, four is not about focusing on "uniqueness" - because uniqueness is about comparing yourself to a norm outside of yourself or an idea of what other people think. The exact PROBLEM for four is the LACK of this, the over-attention to the self, and the self's authenticity. So the result of expressing something you feel is "truly you" regardless what they think, at ANY cost, will end up with a high likelihood of a very unique person in the eyes of others, but on the inside, four isn't sitting around thinking about being unique.

The idea that four's identity was about being different from others originated with RH, as far as I can tell, but I'd like to go over the sources more carefully. As far as I can tell right now, this idea wasn't really floating around with Naranjo, Ichazo, Almaas & holy ideas etc. I have made this argument since 2012 when I originally realized I was a four, but back then I didnt realize Ichazo came first, then Naranjo, then this then that. Now that I have caught up on more research and learned more from the amazing people around me, especially Roshan -- I understood the progression of events more, and what happened between the writers and authors. I'd still like to research this more on my own. To be clear, I have read all of these books, in most cases more than once - but the relationships between authors behind the scenes has played a crucial part here, which needs to be examined further.

Nonetheless, it clicked for me recently that uniqueness was nowhere to be seen in Ichazo's short description. I suspect it was added in by a 9 (Don Riso) who thought he was a four due to Naranjo's cuckolding of 9. So the issue is that Ichazo never finished his descriptions and Naranjo, his student, cuckolded the 9 description -- and so, anyone reading Naranjo would not type at 9 since the type was dehumanized. Therefore Don Riso assumed he was a four, the next best bet, and wrote these books -- which made the four description very 9ish, and caused a complete erasure of the meaning of four. This is why, when I sign into the facebook group where Russ Hudson and other teachers hang out, and they put up a poll, 85% of the people in the group voted that they were fours. Because of the R&H description making four too human and too inclusive, to make up for the errors in Naranjo, who dehumanized 9 and perhaps other types. So this is the mess we're dealing with.

Of course, that's a separate discussion from "what four is," since of course ideas can evolve, and sometimes better ideas pop up later. But it's obvious from the results that RH four did not lead to better ideas. I think the original authors were much more on point. Ichazo said the main mechanism for four was sublimation.

sublimation

[ suhb-luh-mey-shuh?n ]SHOW IPA
SEE SYNONYMS FOR sublimation ON THESAURUS.COM

noun

Psychology. the diversion of the energy of a sexual or other biological impulse from its immediate goal to one of a more acceptable social, moral, or aesthetic nature or use.
Chemistry. the act, fact, or process of subliming(def 9).
a purification or refinement; ennoblement.

I agree with Ichazo, on a personal level. (I used to say that relationships were not the place for my feelings. They belong only in my art.)

Fours sublimate their feelings and desires into a more acceptable, beautiful and lovable means in order to be expressed, which is also the 'fakeness' of expressing their 'authenticity,' arguably, although there is obviously also good in that (like not bothering people with your feelings and making art).
So this is where envy comes in. We've noticed over and over that other types envy "people" much more directly than fours do. So in a conversation last night, we were wondering - is four even related to envy? Ichazo brings up envy for a lot of other types, actually. But I think what envy is in the context of four - it's longing.

Other people are more likely to envy people directly. Some twos really encompass the Invidia "old hag with poison eyes" -- actually we're noticing both 1 and 2 have this in spades. Two, for example, is the wicked witch envying the young princess, because she can still be loved. But four envies a whole other life. A whole other "Erosia" or ideal world. So the reason for the idolatry & idolization, such as worshipping a person who you're obsessed with, is that this person, this artwork, this beauty -- symbolizes an entryway into this other more ideal life that the four constantly longs and pines for. Theres no point in envying that girl's hair, or that guy's career, when neither one of them come close to the ideal that the four has been cut off and exiled from.

The sin should really be "desire" to explain it more directly. Other types also can be desirous and almost everyone burns with desire when they're turned on or hormonal, but four, being more focused on the need to express and understand their "self," will really OBSESS and make their whole life about this burning, ongoing, wet desire. And that is what drives them. Another way to view this is 'melancholy.' Fours find beauty in suffering and may transform that beauty into an aesthetic in order to reach the sublime.

What would the 4 be longing for?
I could say "a return to origin." This is what erosia is, for example.
So they'll find symbols - people, artists, parts of nature, colors - things that express both the lost origin itself, and the path back to it, and their own exile from it. It's not about "this is boring - I want to be somewhere else" -- which is more 7, entitlement. But it's about a world where the four's true self could be what it is meant to be - beautiful. And this return to origin would resolve the feeling of exile.

Needless to say there's also overlap here with 5 alienation, but to reference the idea of moving through the points -- after being exiled, the five seeks to understand what happened and what they are. But if you look at these pictures, these people's eyes, they're all longing to return to that origin

https://www.pinterest.com/the_daeva/enneagram/4/

They're dressed up often in symbols that call to their origin. They're not dressed up in outfits that say "i'm unique!" Daeva found pretty 'clean' photos of these people so that the focus would be on body language. But you can see the people in this folder (keeping in mind some are tentative and eventually will be up for discussion), these are people who REALLY DRESS UP to stand out:

https://www.pinterest.com/the_daeva/enneagram/2/

2, 3, 6 and 7 are the glamor folders. Also, Sx types in many categories will dress up - but let's talk about Sx 4 such as Maria Callas. Her outfits compared to Sx 2s or Sx 7s are more somber and antiquated... like showing a lost civilization.. evoking Egypt or Queens of old. You'll see these nostalgic outfits for four too. A lot of fours now are wearing cowboy hats. Who knew!? But perhaps it's because of the lost culture of America. I hadn't realized this consciously. But perhaps by wearing a cowboy hat, I am effectively mourning a time that is lost. "The land of the free." And I also have Native American jewelry and clothes all my life- an aesthetic that borrows from 'times of old,' but it's subtle. The cowboy hat, the Native American Jewelry, both draw on the same principle, because of the wildness and freedom and rawr that I so worship, and the spiritual aspects, connection to nature - to origin. And that's Sp. For Callas it's connection to true beauty, feminine power etc, truly commanding one's soul as a woman. But she evokes something beyond that, like a swan, and the sadness is more primal.

Mahat had said in chat:
People associate goth with 4. Like 1800s goth is 4 because it was part of the romantic movement. But modern goth is post-punk and it does retain the original romantic era attitude, but the modern stuff is more 6.

I continued to respond:
Six will always evoke a touch of rebellion whereas four is evoking something 'more natural than now' or a time lost, some nostalgia; something more natural than now.* Six is also willing to be mechanical, with its connection to 3 mechanical heart.

This is a better way to phrase "what are they longing for?" the return to origin -- which often is symbolized by a connection to a more pristine time when people were made of better stuff (1).

**The Bismuth Bard** · 04-27-2020, 06:22 PM

I was wondering, what's your take on subtypes since you're a SP 4? Like I've seen some descriptions say sp 4 is 9 looking, and then I've seen those dauntless portrayals of sp 4 too.

Now that description is making me questioning my 4ness. Authenticity means a lot to me, however, I have sacrificed my authenticity at times to make myself look more unique. I wonder if that is a 4w3 thing? They aren't really big sacrifices though, it's mostly things like not wanting to use an avi or wear a certain piece of clothing because it's too similar to someone else. I couldn't change my entirety just to be more unique and I'll still find a way to express my authenticity, but yeah, I've done things like that.

**Animal** · 04-27-2020, 10:00 PM

Triad Components of type four according to R&H:

Image/Heart (2, 3, 4)
Reactive (4, 6, 8)
Frustration/Ideal (1, 4, 7)
Withdrawn/Ego (4, 5, 8)

What this means, essentially, is:

As an image type, one's most basic need is to create and uphold a image of self that has value, in order to compensate for the shame of being without value. The four's image will be based on a need for authentic expression (as a reactive type) combined with a need to meet an ideal (as a frustration type) - and the origins of that image come from within (as a withdrawn type).

How this meshes with Ichazo:

Ichazo's simple dichotomies are in line with these basic components. Four is the over-reasoner whose spiritual path is a return to origin.

A four is defined by a fixation on melancholy - finding beauty and pleasure in longing, over-indulging emotions and transforming their sadness into beauty. These emotions are highlighted in the four's psyche, and the four's defense mechanism of sublimation makes them likely to express them through an aesthetic, through the arts, or through embodying an identity which expresses or symbolizes this experience. Through over-reasoning, the four weaves this melancholic experience into a narrative, or an identity. This is their 'hall of mirrors.'

The dichotomy of 'argumentative vs shallow' makes sense with the combination of reactivity, idealism, & withdrawnness. The four is argumentative because of a need to express their authentic point of view, but this can be shallow because it lacks context within reality, or the world outside themselves. Hence the dichotomy of 'sophistry and superficiality.' The image itself is exactly this: a self-image that is worn on the four's sleeve, making an implicit "argument" about who the four actually is. Yet as deep as this argument may seem, if you evaluate it from within its own logic; it is actually superficial. The four, the "over-reasoner," is in control of the narrative around their image. The four's "self made image" itself is sophistry - a plausible but fallacious presentation of "authenticity."

The four gets trapped in this analysis of who they are and what they are expressing, rather than having true clarity about themselves and the world, based on sober, objective laws of the universe. This is why they are liberated through clarity and equanimity. The "reactive" need to express and seek the "idealized" authentic image, along with the "withdrawn" and subjective analysis, are all balanced with reason so that the four can simply be, and think clearly. The "argument," and the narrative around their self-image, may be set aside in favor of simply seeing, and elucidating, what is.

From there, the four achieves true originality. Originality is the combination of returning to your own 'true origin' - as in, who you authentically are, without all the reasoning and analyzing - and recognizing that this origin is shared with everyone. At the same time, originality implies that there is true creativity in expressing what is real about you. Thus the four recognizes that each individual is connected to the All, and from there, can tell their personal story from a place of connecting to all humanity.

When you break down four to its basic components, the themes are:

Expression (false depth)
Subjectivity (Withdrawnness, over-reasoning)
Melancholia (Finding the beauty in sadness)
Envy (Jealousy, frustrated longing)
Argumentativeness & Sophistry (Reactivity)
Wanting to express something authentic (therefore becoming inauthentic)
Sublimation (Sublimating feelings into art - hopefully to attain catharsis)
Equanimity (Balancing emotion with reason)
Originality (recognizing your own true origin as an individual, which is also interconnected with all)

The main characteristic Ichazo talked about is Melancholia. R&H appropriated this to mean 'depression and sadness,' but when used more accurately, a melancholic temperament is picky, fussy person with extreme moods and impossible ideals. And melancholy is not about depression and giving up, but rather, about finding beauty in suffering. Not only did RH's description demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of melancholy, but also, it failed to address the other components which they themselves have assigned to four. (Reactivity, idealism, etc.)

Avonmora found this amazing description of melancholy, which highlights my point.

https://www.contempaesthetics.org/ne...?articleID=214

"One of the clearest differences between depression and melancholy is that depression is an emotional state of resignation, whereas melancholy is not. When we feel depressed we feel unmotivated, unable to complete even the simplest task and unable to see any way forward. It is a pessimistic state that involves pain. By contrast, melancholy is not such a debilitating mood, rather it involves the pleasure of reflection and contemplation of things we love and long for, so that the hope of having them adds a touch of sweetness that makes melancholy bearable (while misery is not). Its reflective or thoughtful aspect also makes it somehow productive. Melancholy is something we even desire from time to time, for it provides an opportunity for indulgent self-reflection. We enjoy this time out for reflection, but the pleasure is also connected to recollecting that which we long for, where this reflective element can be even exhilarating or uplifting."

**Daeva** · 05-03-2020, 04:42 PM

Deckard (Harrison Ford) in Blade Runner.

Type 4.

Here his type is laid bare by the antagonist, Mr. Wallace (Jared Leto):

"All these years you looked back on that day drunk on the memory of its perfection."

Announcement

Type 4: Notepad for the Collective

Type 4: Notepad for the Collective

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment