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Type 4: Notepad for the Collective

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    #16
    Everything about 4 is so alien to me (which is fitting, I suppose). One thing which I've considered to be 4ish before is how I associate attractiveness with damage or decay, but I see something similar with, for example, Lana Del Rey (who is likely a 2). Although I'm not a fan of her music, it goes to show that being drawn to those themes aren't necessarily 4.

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    • Princess of Hearts
      Princess of Hearts commented
      Editing a comment
      Forgot about this until yesterday when I saw those new threads with Naranjo's writings, I'm thinking about these bits from his 4 section in one of the threads:
      I have already explained, in relation to the masochistic character, the idea that attachment to suffering is this character’s fundamental defect. This attachment is explained by a manipulative function of suffering. On the one hand, they use the maneuver of attracting love through the intensification of one’s own need and frustration; they say: “A baby who does not cry, does not get (breast)fed.”
      Another characteristic defense mechanism of the envious person is “turning against the self” (rediscovered by Perls and called “retroflection” in the vocabulary of Gestalt therapy). It is applied especially to the unconscious aggression that becomes self-aggression. In no other human type is self-reproaching, self-hate, and self-destruction so present.
      A profound observation of attachment to suffering and of the use of this to attract attention is reflected in the joke about the lady who is periodically heard to complain on a night train: “Oh my, I am so thirsty!” After some time, someone who cannot get to sleep gets up and gets her a glass of water. For a few moments there is silence and the passengers feel relieved, but then they hear: “How thirsty I was!”
      (😂)


      Here I see an element of pride in damage and transforming the said damage into desire and desire into beauty, also a lot of "frustrated vanity" as he said in another section, as well as...misguided seduction/line to 2?
      Don't think it goes against beauty in perfection or reaching for the sublime, but I'm personally not seeing the desire to heal the damage unless transforming it into beauty counts as healing it, which it might be in some ways, but it's not the wording I associate with it, seems more about raising it to a higher level, expressing it in a way that does it justice. Healing sounds more like compartmentalizing it.
      Am I wrong?

    • [redacted]
      [redacted] commented
      Editing a comment
      @Princess Of Hearts
      Fuck, that makes me feel so called out

      Animal
      I have looked into 9 already, so your suggestion that I look into it is unnecessarily snide. And by your logic, if I'm a 9 I should also show some connection to 1, and 3, so there should be some sublimity here as well. And I wanted to discuss 4/image-triad and the theme of "seduction through suffering" (and I don't relate to "inner deadening" - that is antithetical to me. When I talk about decay I'm thinking of an *aesthetic*), but it seems this is making you rather defensive, and trying to communicate with you when you are like this is like talking to a wall.
      Last edited by [redacted]; 06-07-2020, 09:52 AM.

    • Animal
      Animal commented
      Editing a comment
      If you want to engage, address my points, which are about ENNEAGRAM, instead of making rude remarks about my character. Also, please check the forum rules. "Attack the argument, not the person." Please treat people with more respect. If you keep this up there will be infractions and bans in line.
      https://archetribe.com/forum/the-tri...-for-the-forum

      I am not interested in engaging you about your type unless you start a formal typing thread. I simply pointed out that you were expressing something which sounded like more of a 9ish sentiment than 4.

    #17
    Princess of Hearts

    I'm going to address your comment here, because I think this is important. Also I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your question =D and I'm always excited to find others who are enthusiastic about digging into Naranjo. *purr*

    Forgot about this until yesterday when I saw those new threads with Naranjo's writings, I'm thinking about these bits from his 4 section in one of the threads:
    I have already explained, in relation to the masochistic character, the idea that attachment to suffering is this character’s fundamental defect. This attachment is explained by a manipulative function of suffering. On the one hand, they use the maneuver of attracting love through the intensification of one’s own need and frustration; they say: “A baby who does not cry, does not get (breast)fed.”
    Another characteristic defense mechanism of the envious person is “turning against the self” (rediscovered by Perls and called “retroflection” in the vocabulary of Gestalt therapy). It is applied especially to the unconscious aggression that becomes self-aggression. In no other human type is self-reproaching, self-hate, and self-destruction so present.
    A profound observation of attachment to suffering and of the use of this to attract attention is reflected in the joke about the lady who is periodically heard to complain on a night train: “Oh my, I am so thirsty!” After some time, someone who cannot get to sleep gets up and gets her a glass of water. For a few moments there is silence and the passengers feel relieved, but then they hear: “How thirsty I was!”
    (😂)


    Here I see an element of pride in damage and transforming the said damage into desire and desire into beauty, also a lot of "frustrated vanity" as he said in another section, as well as...misguided seduction/line to 2?
    Don't think it goes against beauty in perfection or reaching for the sublime, but I'm personally not seeing the desire to heal the damage unless transforming it into beauty counts as healing it, which it might be in some ways, but it's not the wording I associate with it, seems more about raising it to a higher level, expressing it in a way that does it justice. Healing sounds more like compartmentalizing it.
    Am I wrong?
    My response below:
    _____________________

    First of all, Naranjo is explicit that in his writings, he is addressing the main FLAW that underlies the psyche. He doesn't talk about 'the whole person,' but just the deeper 'wrongness' of the person. So if you read the whole threads, you'll see I posted some of his writings where he discusses this. He wanted to focus on the fixation, and he does acknowledge that these fixations can lead to "high sides" but also that the person is more than the fixation.
    So unless you're looking at a really unhealthy, 1 dimensional person - yes, they will want to transform their darkness into something good, regardless of the type. But in Almaas holy ideas, he discusses how four is specifically focused on transformation (it kind of symbolizes it, as far as the enneagram, although 1-4-7 all have these elements). Also, Naranjo mentions in C&N,

    Refinement

    An inclination to refinement (and the corresponding aversion to grossness) is manifest in descriptors such as “stylish,” “delicate,” “elegant,” “tasteful,” “artistic,” “sensitive,” and sometimes “arty” and “affected,” “mannered” and “posturing.” They may be understood as efforts on the part of the person to compensate for a poor self-image (so that an ugly self-image and the refined self-ideal may be seen as reciprocally supporting each other); also, they convey the attempt on the part of the person to be something different from what he or she is, perhaps connected to class envy. The lack of originality entailed by such imitativeness in turn; perpetuates an envy of originality—just as the attempt to imitate original individuals and the wish to emulate spontaneity are doomed to fail.

    Artistic Interests

    The characteristic inclination of ennea-type IV towards the arts is over-determined: at least one of its roots lies in the refined characteristic of envious character. It is supported too, by the feeling-centered disposition of the type. Other components are the possibility of idealizing pain through art and even transmuting it—to the extent that it becomes an element in the configuration of beauty.

    So yes this is an intrinsic part of the type, included even by the writer who is most focused on the negative, and explicitly so.

    If I had to say there's one type associated with "the sublime," it would be 2. RH 2 is completely different from Naranjo 2, and I have many reasons why I maintain that R&H are frauds. (Even Naranjo and Ichazo were angry that later writers ruined enneagram and stole parts of their work and misappropriated it.). The RH two is a 'mother theresa' whereas the Naranjo 2 actually fits the components, being proud and sublime, full of their own beauty, romantic, seductive and lovely. The problem with 2 is that they flatter, and seduce, but they never really show the cracks, so the "love" they attain always ends up feeling empty. But the more motherly, dependable, 'cooking for the family and holding it together' archetype is actually NINE. And Naranjo portrays 9 as a jolly, booming person, with much more outward energy than what RH attributes to them.

    Here are three 9 quotes just from one description alone:

    He wears shoes that are bigger than his feet and speaks in a loud, booming voice.
    He likes to visit the different inns of the city and his humor and gaiety entertains those present.
    This is a dispassionate, phlegmatic character, though the switching off of his or her personal desires frequently coincides with a jovial, gregarious disposition.
    But nine is actually the archetype of the OVERBEARING mother, even. Naranjo talks about this. Two is not; rather, two wants for you to love them, and is drunk on their own beauty and amazingness. That's what pride is about.

    So if four moves along the lines to 2 and 1, then you have on the one hand the prideful and sublime character, all about romance and beauty, proud of their own amazingness; and on the other hand, the perfectionistic, self-refining character. Four is also between 3 and 5, two competency types - one of which cares a lot about appearing beautiful (three) and one which cares about evaluating their inner workings and having an identity and mindset SEPARATE from the others (five). You have to think about the placement on the enneagram too, in order for things to make sense. That's why the enneagram is a circle with points rather than just a list of separate items.

    And so, it makes sense that even Naranjo, who focuses only on the negative, HAS TO mention the refinement and 'transformation of suffering into beauty' of four - because it is part of the trait structure. Also, do not forget that envy breeds competition.

    This character may express envy in a “decapitating” way, according to the prototype of Cain, who competitively hated anyone else who had what he lacked—the rich, the male, the privileged. But there also exists admiring envy that spurs one on in a self-demanding desire to attain the social values or models which one feels to be deficient.
    And this brings up the MAIN focus of four which is introjection. He may talk about the mother's breast and 'excrament' as a metaphor, but he also spends a ton of time in several books talking about how introjection WORKS - this is the MEAT of type four. And it's about introjecting into yourself the qualities you envy in others, which can be very literal, like taking parts of the aesthetic of the beautiful person who you feel unworthy of, and making it part of your own. This way you don't "need" the other person because their aesthetic and beauty is a part of you. You also strive to become the thing that you admire because you're not enough just as you are.

    Indeed, fours do not transform the suffering into beauty in order to HEAL, per se. The idea is to transform it into beauty in order to possess and create that beauty yourself. The point is not necessarily to 'heal.' That type of thinking comes from other types who want to escape pain and suffering, or simply present a persona of a person who 'has it together.' Four may not necessarily see the point of forcing themselves to 'heal' because they want to be authentic about exploring and expressing their inner state as it is, even if they only do that in private. The claim of "healing" often strikes me, personally, as someone putting on a mask. You can't really heal suffering because suffering is existential. In my view, it's about transforming that into beauty, which is in line with what Naranjo and Almaas say about it.

    So yes I agree there is not a desire to 'heal' it per se, more to transform it. The healing of a specific issue may or may not happen as a side effect of that 'expression' and transformation into beauty, but there will always be something else to suffer about.

    In the exchange above - this was the only time I mentioned healing.
    I am put off by aesthetics of 'damage and decay,' but suffering is different. Suffering is utterly human, genuine. But four is not about decay - four is about reaching for the sublime and longing for it. Suffering can be transformed into beauty. Damage can be healed. "Decay' is past that point, and I wouldn't associate with it, personally.
    Decay is a lack of transformation. Naranjo talks a lot about this in his 9 segments. While nine 'remains still' and the inner world decays, the life becomes routine... four and five are always seeking within. Decay is more something that gut types deal with because it's at the top of the enneagram where there isn't much inner searching, but rather 'inner deadening.' The two and the four may POISON their lover with their own needs, but that's a very different thing from decay. As for damage, it's kind of vague, but the four does not per se feel DAMAGED (which sounds like it happened as a result of a trauma) -- they feel intrinsically flawed or not whole. It feels like an inborn thing, part of their very fabric & identity. It's the sense that "as a baby, I bit my mother's breast too hard and so she pulled back and I could not get milk." "When my mother breast fed me, I filled her breast with excrement" -- these are the metaphors Naranjo uses. But it's the sense that "I've always been like this" rather than "I was damaged." This is why the suffering feels existential and fundamental for four - because they were 'exiled' for their flaws as soon as they were born.

    And most importantly - envy means desire - in fact, in older explanations about sins, envy WAS simply 'desire,' and Naranjo is explicit that the meaning of envy IS desire. Fours are focused on the things better than themselves that are out of reach, the things that are more beautiful, more good. They are not "attracted to the ugly" but rather feel that they themselves are 'ugly' - and desire to transform themselves into something beautiful, something closer to the things they desire. But the thing about having 'desire' as your main sin means that you are constantly focused on the thing you want, yearning, reaching, demanding it. The beauty and goodness, and also the space between you and it, is paramount.
    Last edited by Animal; 06-08-2020, 12:36 PM.

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      #18
      Also I don't feel like the theme of envy and desire necessarily goes against a "decay" aesthetic. I think they can go well together. The music video for this song comes to mind. It goes for a dilapidated aesthetic that adds to the sense of longing and desire of the person.

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