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A little confusing, for example what is this thing about 4 supposed to mean?
"The poison of this domain is Deception."
And why is 3 Histrionic and 2 Narcissistic, should it not be the other way around?
Why is the poison of 6 jealousy?
Have these kinds of questions for every type, like suddenly there's some words that are normally always associated with some other type.
It's like, it makes sense until it completely stops making sense
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the wording. -
The descriptions are too packed with psychological words to work on their own. More elaboration was needed. Ichazo wasn't ready to show this to the public.Originally posted by moonlight View PostA little confusing, for example what is this thing about 4 supposed to mean?
"The poison of this domain is Deception."
And why is 3 Histrionic and 2 Narcissistic, should it not be the other way around?
Why is the poison of 6 jealousy?
Have these kinds of questions for every type, like suddenly there's some words that are normally always associated with some other type.
It's like, it makes sense until it completely stops making sense
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the wording.
However it is worth noting that this is why I loathe, detest and despise RH. They contributed some good ideas to the field like health levels & organization of triads (I'm not sure to what degree triads were theirs originally), but overall , their descriptions are the popularized ones, and they leave out the meat of the types completely. Naranjo followed Ichazo, and his descriptions have a lot of meat and excellent ideas too, but he really butchered and neutered type 9. So then RH came in, glorifying 4 and 5. Don Riso is an obvious 9 who mistyped at 4, and in order to make this fit, they stripped away the sins from the types. So their caricatures became popular online, completely missing what the types are actually about.
For instance, this is a lot closer to Naranjo's 2 descriptions, than any of that neutered faceless caretaker RH 2 stuff.
I find this extremely helpful and correct. 2s are fussy! And yet they also can be messy and libertine. There are dichotomies around freedom. Also I love how he calls 2 "over-independent." 2s are love-cravey and love-needy, but they are not 'dependent' on another, at least consciously. 2 is willful and sees themself as "having no needs." So they can be overly needy in "I need your love," like a hunger that can't be filled; but they don't need you to do their laundry. In fact they are more likely to do YOUR laundry.This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Routine on one side, or Flexibility at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Meticulousness at one extreme or Negligence at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Fussy character at one end, the Messy person at the other.
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Oh ok that makes sense, it does sound kinda raw and unfinished, like he he just put some core concepts on paper as he sees them without bothering too much with how the wording could be interpreted by someone with less knowledge. Since I read some of Naranjo's work I can kinda assume what's supposed to be written between the lines, but some of the words are still confusing.
But I agree that there is a lot that's spot on and has 'meat'.
RH is...I don't know how people even accept those kinds of descriptions? -
@princess of hearts
Sorry, I just saw this comment, hadn't seen it before. I agree that the descriptions look raw and unfinished, but Ichazo was involved with the Arica school - where Naranjo studied. I have to do more reading to understand the exact relationship between Ichazo and Naranjo and Gurdjieff (the founder) - but I know taht there was a direct relationship there. RH has no direct relationship that I'm aware of and also their descriptions bear little resemblance to the true core principles of the types as they were being explored by their predecessors.
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Princess of Hearts
Here, I delved into some of my ideas about Ichazo & four, which have evolved in conjunction with ideas about other texts and my experience in communities, as well as self work. I hope this is helpful to see how Ichazo can be interpreted. I'll be writing up a lot more about this over time, cross referencing with other writers etc, but this is my initial attempt to delve into this in public. The thread I linked also contains a critique of RH's approach to four and shows that many of their exemplars are mistyped by our estimation.
https://archetribe.com/forum/typolog...=9421#post9421Comment
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I learned a lot from Ichazo and other Enneagram teachers. From my opinion he was one of a key person which developed Enneagram to the level where is today. Unfortunately he passed away last year in March 2020
From him on other teachers brought Enneagram to USA and to the rest of the world. The most influent people are Claudio Naranjo, Don Riso, Russ Hudson etc.. However you can read post on blog bellow to learn more about the origin and history of the Enneagram System.
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Hm, I haven't given them a really long look so I can't give a philosophical read but from a typing perspective they feel a bit...Barnum Effectish. Like reading the 2 description to see if it fits and I go 'oh right that's so me, sometimes I'm meticulous but I can also be negligent!' but surely almost anyone can say that. How is it 2-specific (same with the other things in other types, surely most people can be either of the extremes but when does that mean something type-related?
Haven't come across the 'Domain of...' thing before, what is the theory behind that?Comment
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damn...8 really fits well.Comment
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Since we're looking at 2 and 7 for me, and these descriptions are short, I wanted to go through them and describe how I do/don't relate! I know they're very rough/ incomplete and not equally good across the board but wanted to do this as a thought exercise anyway ^^
2
"Over-independent" - I feel like I'm actually overly dependent in a lot of ways ? but it's actually kind of opposite of what you said above. I don't feel needy for love but I DO kinda need someone to do my laundry aha... I did actually go through a period though where, after friends moving away so many times, I was like okay fine I'm not even going to bother making friends who needs friends I can do fine on my own! about four months into this i was so depressed i was fantasizing about running away every day so I gave in and made some friends
I'm not sure about vanity? I kind of play into vanity in a funny/indulgent way but I don't think I'm actually vain.
? pride
? denial
unsure about routine & flexibility as a dichotomy for me but maybe... I definitely have some routines and I've mentioned before that "following the rules perfectly" is kind of a fun exercise for me so I wikihow the most ridiculous shit like "how to take a shower" once in a while. i dunno about flexibility.
meticulousnesss & negligence - yes to both. when i set my mind to something I'm extremely meticulous in how I go about it (as you've witnessed erica with the kitten debacle lol) or I just. Do not care. At all. I never half ass anything, it's whole ass or nada!
fussy & messy - yes to both lol, fussy in the way I just described but I let things fall to the wayside too especially if I get overwhelmed.
Unsure I relate to holy freedom. I feel like a lot of type 7 "holy plan" descriptions are actually describing holy freedom ideas and that's actually why I don't relate as much to them. I'm not sure... I do feel compelled to intervene a lot but I guess I also often think it'll work itself out eventually even without my input. I dunno.
It's probably worth mentioning this is a learned adjustment of attitude but I think the time where I did feel my specific intervention was necessary was a special case bc of abuse. When I was 14, my first abusive friend was severely depressed, would constantly ask me for advice, and told me multiple times that I'm her only friend, pressured me not to leave, and all but said she'd commit suicide without my help. I tried to pull in other resources so I really didn't think I could do it all on my own - called helplines for advice, tried to get in touch with her mom, researched coping strategies and stuff for her. It was a very scary relationship, it felt like her life was in my hands, but I don't know if that's because it was a natural inclination of mine to feel that way or because she worked very hard to put the idea in my head. We didn't get that close until almost two years after we first met; I was in another country at that point and didn't have any intimate friendships in the place I moved to. She tore apart the group I left behind that I had taken so much time to bring together, and I was honestly really angry at her, but she manipulated me into thinking that my other friends had stigmatized her because of mental illness. It was a long time before we were close enough and that I was removed enough from the situation to believe her when she said I was the only person she had. My attitude adjustment happened in response to this situation - after she was out of my life I made a hard shift to believing that nobody's life is in my hands, becoming averse to anyone saying I'm their only friend to the point where I would instantly cut someone off if they said this to me (its no longer a trigger phrase but I still avoid this), and, through seeing how her situation and the situations of others I cut off developed after I left them, decided that people will get along just fine without me and my presence is never a necessary condition for anyone's wellbeing. I don't know if this means that I got some kind of grasp on the holy idea fairly early or what, but my entire relationship with it can basically be characterized by this single relationship, because it was the first and last time this ever happened.
7
"over-idealist" ya
? dreaming
? gluttony
unsure what displacement means but ? dissociation
? on self-respect and modesty as a dichotomy for me. I do have a lot of self-respect and confidence, but I'm also nervous and hesitant. Don't know if that's a modesty thing lol.
superiority & inferiority - I don't really notice other people enough to feel inferior? but I guess in terms of how well I think I can do something I do vascillate a bit between being like "I could do better easily!" and "I am the absolute worst person you could ever ask to do this" ? when superiority and inferiority are relevant to me it's usually competency-related.
pretentious & loser - RUDE!!! not really wrong though ? I'm pretty pretentious but I also struggle with feeling like I have no life and am boring aha... actually that's probably one of my biggest dichotomies, I feel like I'm the most interesting person in the world most of the time but I also worry that I'm boring/my life is boring ?
I relate to holy wisdom much more than holy plan and honestly at this point, even though holy perfection was the most beautiful of the holy ideas to me at one point, holy wisdom is the one I relate to the most. I struggle so much with staying and doing the work in the present. I'm always trying to jump past the pain straight to the moral of the story - the wisdom - the future where it all makes sense.Last edited by inkreservoir; 12-14-2021, 10:46 AM.Comment
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Sorry for my english as I'm not an english speaker native...
very interesting topics indeed. Just a few things though. Ichazo never learned the Enneagram from Gurdjief and yes, as it was stated above, the enneagram of personality from Ichazo is only a part of Ichazo's Protoanalysis system which apparently includes 18 others Enneagrams. The Enneagram of personality is just one them.
Ichazo fell out with the others Enneagram teachers because he stated that the Enneagram of personality must be teach as a part of a larger system because the risk of misuse and misdunderstanding would be inevitable otherwise. All the stuff and writings you find about the Enneagram today proves him right.
Gurdjief and Ichazo was against the teachings of the Enneagram to everyone and that it must be kept and teach secretly as it was done for centuries. Naranjo only spent 3-5 months in Arica with Ichazo and when he went back to Berkeley he created the SAT (seeker after truth), as it was said earlier, included students like Palmer, AH Almaas, Maitri, Och... Naranjo made his students agreed (and signed a document) not to reveal the teachings of the Enneagram like Ichazo told him to do so when he first joined him in Arica. Well apparently it was a difficult secret to keep for them especially Palmer whose first book was a bestseller. After that Ichazo took legal action against Palmer (and lost). Ironically Palmer didn't show much of her 6's loyalty to the agreement of confidentiality she had when she was first taught the Enneagram by Naranjo...but that's another story.
Talking about the domain. Domains in Enneagram comes from Ichazo and only. It is related to the wings and the swings to that dichotomies only relate to the specific dichotomie of each types. That means for example the Meticulousness and Negligence of 2's only relates to the domain of Health and Security and not for example in jobs or other fields. Besides, the wording of the holy ideas stated by Ichazo must not be understand in the "usual" terms as we understand it today and can have very opposite meanings as we commonly understand the word's meaning today.
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